Israel

[bjornredtail]

If it were to come to full blown war, Israel would kick some Arab hind end. 1. They have done it before. 2. Only part of the Arab world seems dumb enough to try again. For that reason, I do not see any arab power attempting to attacking Israel. Of course, this doesn't prevent them from supporting others who might attack Israel. Which where some of this trouble may be comeing from.

I really don't see that happening though, unless one of the Arab powers does something exremely stupid. Which isn't outside the relm of possibility, but still rather unlikely. For the next few months (yes, months) I see Israel being true to thier word and continueing the millitery action. The Palestinians, under the terrorist Hamas government will continue to launch various attacks aginst Israel, perhaps returning to more of suside attacks we have seen in the past, with verying degrees of sucess. In other words, business as usual...

Another question, an Israeli helicopter fires a missile into a crowded marketplace and kills 12 or a Palestinian suicide bomber blows himself up in a market and kills 12, would you view that as equally bad?

The actions of the suside bomber are far worse, for a number of reasons. An Israeli missile strike would usually target a specific person who has committed or commanded terrorist acts and would continue to do so. By eliminateing him, Israel is acctually saveing lives in the long run. Second, is the intent of the attack. Israel targets (perhaps incorrectly, hence the more Machivelian part of my rant later) terrorist leaders. Palestinian suicide bombers target purely innocent civilians.

Go look at some pictures and point out exactly which ones are ragheads. Most of the pictures I see they arn't wearing one. I think your confusing them with another people.

Perhaps the more correct derrogatory term might be "islamo facist"...

EDIT: Which country has had the most UN resolutions passed against it? Here's a hint, it's more than every single nation in the entire world COMBINED.

Is this the same UN that said that Iraq had stockpiles of weapons of mass distruction that it's inspectors were unable to find? The same UN that has great trouble condemning the North Korean missile tests? The same UN has China and Syria on the Human Rights Council? Especially given the last one of those points, I wouldn't put much trust in the UN in this matter.


Although that tatic of killing the Palestinian population would be devistateingly effective (and not that diffacult to do) , Israel is not doing that. They are fighting an uncivilized threat that does not abide by the rules of war and yet they continue to provide humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip and they continue to go to great leignths to avoid killing civilians. This is far more than can be said for Hamas (includeing the Hamas run Palestinian government) or Hezbollah.

[The Beatles]

Oh, come on, the UN is largely a joke -- a forum for the expression of international hatred, prejudice, and economic threats. Its only useful function is to keep troops in tinpot countries where wars have ended -- a sort of benign vulture.

[Gen. Volkov]

A yup. The UN is now largely defunct as world governing body. There was a time when grievances could be brought before the council and actually discussed diplomatically. Then the Cold War turned it into the Uncle Sam and Uncle Lenin show. (Don't know if the USSR does have an equivalent to Uncle Sam, so I just used Lenin, who held about the same place in their society after Stalin took over.) Now it's just as Beatles said. As too Isreal vs. entire Arab world. It's been going on since 1949 and will continue into the forseeable future. At some point Israel will get pissed off enough to use one of the 20 nukes we gave them and then the pot will boil over. That will be the beginning of world war 3. The rest is horrible but ultimately insignificant compared to that holocaust. As too the Franco-Prussian war, WW1 and WW2... they were more isolated than Beatles says, but the tensions were there the entire time.

And yes, Israel would mop the floor with anyone who attacked her. This is thanks largely to the fact that the US has trained and supplied her military since day one. In addition to being her staunchest ally on the world stage for over 50 years. The probably reason is that the US has more Jews than Israel does. Or maybe it's just the US supporting Britain again. I dunno.

And it really doesn't matter who started it, Jews and Arabs have been fighting each other since the two peoples first came into being. The only difference is, nowadays the Jews have the upper hand. The thing about the arty shell is suspect, but it could have been a live round that failed to explode until later. Then they kidnapped an Israeli soldier. Remember what the US did when they kidnapped that US soldier in Iraq? We took the place apart looking for him. How is this any different in Israel's case?

[Nuclear Raunch]

(Don't know if the USSR does have an equivalent to Uncle Sam, so I just used Lenin, who held about the same place in their society after Stalin took over.)

Uncle Joe IIRC.

[Devari]

And yes, Israel would mop the floor with anyone who attacked her. This is thanks largely to the fact that the US has trained and supplied her military since day one.

I HAVE to pick on that one. At the very, very beginning, the Soviets supplied and supported Israel, back in the 1948 war. If memory serves, that is. I can't remember about the US. Of course, the Soviets ended up aligned with the Arab states and the US ended up aligned with Israel. Sometimes I get the feeling they picked different sides of a conflict just to spite eachother.

[The Beatles]

Or maybe it's just the US supporting Britain again. I dunno.

I missed the logic there. Could you please elaborate?

Devari -- pretty much, yes. Except it's a bit more than spite: ideology, pride, and the necessity to keep a communistic system in states opposed to a state with a capitalist system -- which developed that sytem due to the US's support.

[Gen. Volkov]

No, Uncle Joe was our (the west's) nickname for Stalin. That was back during WW2.


And the Soviets didn't want anything to do with Israel from day one. All the major arms sales in the region went to Egypt. The Soviets wanted a combined state of Palestine, with Jews, Arabs, and Palestinians all living together "under one democratic government". Complete BS of course, but they didn't get that decision. They did get the Brits to leave though.

All of Israel's weapons have been supplied by either the US or another Western state, usually one of the NATO alliance countries. The only point where they might have had Soviet built equipment is when the IDF captured Arab military equipment in the first war just after Israel was made a country. The three major suppliers of Israeli military hardware have been France, Germany, and the United States.

And of course the US and the USSR picked different sides, it was kinda their deal, whichever side one came down on, the other one would pick the opposite.

[Devari]

In 1948, the Israelis did use Czechoslovakian-supplied military hardware. I believe this was after the National Front had come to power in Czechoslovakia. So, in the very early conflict, the Soviet Union at the very least permitted its satellite to arm the Israeli forces.

[Gen. Volkov]

Yes, the Czech's did supply them. With German equipment abandoned in their country.
25 Messerschmidt fighter planes, 50 thousand german rifles and 6000 German machine guns. The rifles, along with the american UZI remained in use by the IDF for several decades.

The Czech's were acting with the knowledge and consent of Stalin. He apparently was trying to turn Israel into a pro-Soviet country, but when the communists in Israel were defeated in the elections, the aid stopped. That marked the end of the Soviet Union's or any satellites involvement with supplying Israel arms. So we are both right. The Israelis never had Soviet equipment, but the Soviets were involved in supplying them arms. For one year Jan. of '48 to Jan. of '49. And not even alone. In fact they weren't even majority suppliers in some areas. The Brits gave them more planes. 50-odd Spitfires.

[bjornredtail]

Slight nitpick, Messerschmitt airframes, not Messerschmitt aircraft. The Avia S-199 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avia_S-199), which was the first Israeli fighter was built by Avia, useing the Bf 109 airframe but a Junkers Jumo 211 engine instead of the Daimler-Benz DB 605 that the Bf 109 was designed to use.

[Gen. Volkov]

That is the slightest of nits I have ever seen picked.

And I'm not talking about planes built for Israel, I'm talking about pre-existing equipment that was sold to Israel. The information I have does not specify plane type, but it does say that 25 German Messerschmidts were sold to Israel. I'm assuming 109's.
The first Israeli aircraft were not specifically built for them, but leftover hardware from WW2.

[Devari]

Yes, the Czech's did supply them. With German equipment abandoned in their country.
25 Messerschmidt fighter planes, 50 thousand german rifles and 6000 German machine guns. The rifles, along with the american UZI remained in use by the IDF for several decades.

The Czech's were acting with the knowledge and consent of Stalin. He apparently was trying to turn Israel into a pro-Soviet country, but when the communists in Israel were defeated in the elections, the aid stopped. That marked the end of the Soviet Union's or any satellites involvement with supplying Israel arms. So we are both right. The Israelis never had Soviet equipment, but the Soviets were involved in supplying them arms. For one year Jan. of '48 to Jan. of '49. And not even alone. In fact they weren't even majority suppliers in some areas. The Brits gave them more planes. 50-odd Spitfires.

Sorry, I should have been a bit more specific with my original statement. I did mean that the Soviet administration essentially supplied arms to Israel, at one point during the 1947-49 conflict.

And, yes, Stalin hoped dearly to turn Israel into a Bolshevik-like state. I believe he reversed the original Bolshevik doctrine, in fact, that stated that Zionism was "a form of bourgeois nationalism". When his "goodwill" failed and Israel turned to the Western bloc for aid, he decided to reverse his original reversal, now that the Jews had spurned his support.

[Devari]

That is the slightest of nits I have ever seen picked.

And I'm not talking about planes built for Israel, I'm talking about pre-existing equipment that was sold to Israel. The information I have does not specify plane type, but it does say that 25 German Messerschmidts were sold to Israel. I'm assuming 109's.
The first Israeli aircraft were not specifically built for them, but leftover hardware from WW2.

Ironically, leftover Nazi-designed hardware.

[Gen. Volkov]

*laughs*. Yeah, that's irony for yah. But it wasn't ALL leftover Nazi hardware. Like I said, the US sold them Uzi's and the Brits sold them Spitfires.

Sorry, I should have been a bit more specific with my original statement. I did mean that the Soviet administration essentially supplied arms to Israel, at one point during the 1947-49 conflict.

Well that is accurate, the Soviets supplied Israel with arms by proxy, what you said before about Soviet equipment was not.

*Nod* Stalin was trying to expand his sphere of influence so that any future attack would have to come through allied states before it reached Russia proper. So he was willing to do most anything in order to advance his cause. Pretty much the same reason he signed the nonaggression pact with Hitler, he was willing to do most anything to buy some time to rebuild the army after his purges, in other words, advance his cause. His cause at that point being his and Russia's survival.

[The Beatles]

Well that is accurate, the Soviets supplied Israel with arms by proxy, what you said before about Soviet equipment was not.

That's a nitpick too, and a three-post one.

The whole Soviet Union was partly for buffering, although not entirely as significant resources were deployed in those countries. It was a preliminary to a later envisioned world government. They did, however, invest in those countries and not just sack them for resources.