Neoconservatism vs conservatism

[The Beatles]

Man, you really get on my tits.

if you do not get such a feeling...why do it? is it because your jealous and know that your home country is a toilet bowl?

I already explained this in terms a toddler would understand. Your continent has not been as deeply scarred by nationalism as mine. It is my habit to correct ignorance when I have time, so I take the time in this little circle of FAFers, to point it out. Obviously I do not do this in a completely closed-minded environment, but FAF isn't one.

yes i did wink.gif you see, when someone shows that they are biased, then thier true colors sorta...damper thier opinions and thoughts, making them less likely to be credited because of thier slanted views. you, beatles, compared immergration to slavery, USA's government to White Supremeism, and have called the country that is currently giving you an education jingoistic and nationalistic (whereas, i dont really see the insult your trying to poke there. agian, its a matter of who cares) so! my point is, when you set out to do a hit piece, be prepared, because you intentions and your reactions to others tell alot.

I'm not biased. You asked me what my motivations were, a straight question. I gave you a straight answer and told you. I had been fully aware of my motivations, thank you. I am certainly not going to change my behavior, as my outlook hasn't changed. You got a question answered, I already had it figured out.

thats a matter of wither or not you agree with what your country has done and all this CRAP about propaganda...dear me...give me an example please.

I don't have the time. However, open any elementary or highschool textbook. It's practically as bad as the Russian textbooks.

you see, its comments like that that show your narrow views and exposes you to the one tract minded person that you are. have you ever went to foxnews online or watched it on television?

Yes, I read them about once a week. My opinion of them is universally low.
I know all other news stations are crap. That's why I don't watch television news, and why only about 10-20% of the news I read is from American news sources. Sorry to say this.

[Slasher]

Mr Beatles has tits?

[The Beatles]

It's a colloquialism. Moreover I think it's an English colloquialism, so you of all people should know it.

[Freenhult]

It's a colloquialism. Moreover I think it's an English colloquialism, so you of all people should know it.

XD @ Fact he defended himself.

No really. *Cough* Right.

[Slasher]

It's a colloquialism. Moreover I think it's an English colloquialism, so you of all people should know it.

I know, remember our msn conversation a while back? "It's gone tits up"... I was just taking the mess

[The Beatles]

Ahh, righto.

[Gen. Volkov]

I don't have the time. However, open any elementary or highschool textbook. It's practically as bad as the Russian textbooks.

I would tend to disagree with that. Do American books slant things? Yes. Do they revise history in substantial ways? No. Soviet textbooks were famous for rather substantial alterations to history. American puts out propaganda, but I have yet to hear an American president utter the words "We will bury you" or anything like it. So on the whole I would say that we are not quite as bad as the old Soviet Union when it comes to propaganda.

You are correct, we have not be deeply scarred by nationalism. Why do you think that is? We have had every opportunity to follow the same path as various European democracies descent into hyper-nationalism, and eventually tyranny. Personally, I think it's because we are such an old democracy, we are comfortable in our patriotism, and don't let it get much beyond that. Our early years were marked by some nationalism, but I think that the design of our government, and the very intelligent leaders we had gave us an edge, and allowed us to pass through that without to much harm. That and getting our butts kicked for most of the war of 1812, that'll deflate anyones head.

We aren't that nationalist Beatles, we are patriotic, but not nationalistic. I think we've had this conversation before. (OK, Kraken's a bit nationalistic, but the majority of Americans aren't)

[The Beatles]

Yes, I didn't say it's as bad. Nothing is as bad...

I call bollocks on your second statement though. Want a simple explanation for why nationalism hasn't scarred you? You're not close to anybody. Nationalism in America has only ever left America a victor or tied: the invasions of Mexico, the 1812-1814 war and invasion of Canada... but want something closer to home? McCarthy. W.r.t. the 1812 war, from what I gather, it was a tie because the UK was fighting two wars at the same time. Even so the Royal Navy's economic blockade was pretty harmful to the American economy at the time.

I understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism. The trouble is, the slope is very, very slippery. McCarthy crossed it, and when I hear the two Bushes speak, I shudder, because I think they have crossed it too. And what does that say about the people who voted for them?

[Kraken]

Nationalism in America has only ever left America a victor or tied

how about whipping some british ass to get our independence? or saving france and europe in both world wars? pah.

and when I hear the two Bushes speak, I shudder, because I think they have crossed it too. And what does that say about the people who voted for them?

i voted for president George W. Bush, the second time and i voted for..dear me...Al Gore, the first time. as for who we vote for and what they do, its a part of the concequinces therin. so get over it. i am proud of our president even if a foreinger such as yourself doest understand the reasons why. i understand why, however, its because you didnt vote in either nor in President Bush Sr. and thusly have no pony in the race. you shudder, well good. shudder away. but understand the reason for your shuddering and not the reasons that you have so obviously been fed through liberal hit groups.
i shudder to think that someone such as your self thinks that you have a bloody right to say anything about whoever the american president is, same goes for any american citizen who is of legal voting age and does not vote. dont vote: shut up. but in your case, my dear beloved foreign beatles, how can you make a satement over something that you do not understand. you critize america and yet you take advantage of it. you shun the actions of the countries past and yet you benefit from it. you say what you wish without fear of persecution, but you fail to realize that america has laid it upon your lap and the lack of gratefulness is showing fortwit.
if you were drowing and a man pulled you out of the water and gave you fire, clothes and food and when you were well, you realize that this man was some old buzzard that killed your pet dog five years ago, would you still curse his name as you walk home?
i would hope not.
but there are some who seem to think that any turn is still a bad turn.
am i nationalistic? i dont really know. but i am bitter towards those who would take and not give. i am bitter towards those who fail to see thier freedom that is not an intitlement. no, it wasnt and never will be free as long as there are those who would love to shake it from sky and watch it burn for the sake of ignorance.

It is my habit to correct ignorance when I have time, so I take the time in this little circle of FAFers, to point it out.

your idea of what people are ignorant about is truly just that: your idea. i show ignorance as do you. this may be your forum but beware! there are not sheep here. i will not swallow nor will i be sheared. point all you wish, but i do hope you do not think that you are above. (i do not think this about you btw)

I don't have the time. However, open any elementary or highschool textbook. It's practically as bad as the Russian textbooks.

dont have time? then why start? dont start something that you cannot finish!
and do give a EXAMPLE of the latter part of the Russian textbook...please...im still waiting for other examples....

Yes, I read them about once a week. My opinion of them is universally low.

are you kidding me? do me a favor, try this...really. WATCH or READ with a mind that doesnt interfere and tell you the crap you have heard is true. really beatles, try. and to tell the truth, i dont believe it. i think you may have lied here...

[Gen. Volkov]

Yes, I didn't say it's as bad. Nothing is as bad...

Well, you said practically as bad, which means it's very very close, and I would not say that it is.

I call bollocks on your second statement though. Want a simple explanation for why nationalism hasn't scarred you? You're not close to anybody. Nationalism in America has only ever left America a victor or tied: the invasions of Mexico, the 1812-1814 war and invasion of Canada... but want something closer to home? McCarthy. W.r.t. the 1812 war, from what I gather, it was a tie because the UK was fighting two wars at the same time. Even so the Royal Navy's economic blockade was pretty harmful to the American economy at the time.

Yeah, UK would have kicked our collective ass three ways from Sunday if not for also being at war with Napoleon in Europe. We weren't even up to Revolutionary war standards in that fiasco. McCarthy's witch hunts weren't precisely nationalism, he was playing on the "Red Scare" that was occurring at the same time. The Soviets were challenging our place as the world's biggest superpower, and this rightfully scared us. So anything "Red" became bad. McCarthy just took that and ran with it. I'm not sure if I would call that nationalism.

I call bollocks on your assertion that America has only ever won wars based on Nationalism. What about Vietnam? We lost there. (Politically anyway) I don't see how you can say that wasn't a war based on nationalism.

I understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism. The trouble is, the slope is very, very slippery. McCarthy crossed it, and when I hear the two Bushes speak, I shudder, because I think they have crossed it too. And what does that say about the people who voted for them?

The two Bushes? Jr. and Sr.? Sr. wasn't too bad, though Jr. might be a little across the line. What it says about the people who voted for them? It says they are patriotic and conservative. That's about it. Just because leaders message has a nationalistic tinge to it, doesn't mean everyone who voted for him thinks the same way.

The slope may or may not be slippery, but currently America is at the top of the slope wearing non-slip shoes. (Hehe, extenda-metaphor) At least in my mind.

[Arthus]

Just curious. Can you say exactly what makes President Bush not a terrible president?

[Kraken]

Just curious. Can you say exactly what made President Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Kennedy........etc, not a terrible president?


hmmmmm?


wouldnt that amount to, lets see...opinion?

bug off artus.

[The Beatles]

i shudder to think that someone such as your self thinks that you have a bloody right to say anything about whoever the american president is, same goes for any american citizen who is of legal voting age and does not vote. dont vote: shut up. but in your case, my dear beloved foreign beatles, how can you make a satement over something that you do not understand. you critize america and yet you take advantage of it. you shun the actions of the countries past and yet you benefit from it. you say what you wish without fear of persecution, but you fail to realize that america has laid it upon your lap and the lack of gratefulness is showing fortwit.

I take exception to that. You talk as if freedom of speech was invented in America... documents in 1689 and 1789 in England and France, respectively, guaranteed it. France's system changed many times since then, but England's didn't. America guaranteed it in 1791, its system also hasn't changed since then. Human rights wasn't invented in America, it was adopted. Anglo-Saxon societies have a pretty good record on this, because they did the most for the idea's propagation.

But are you saying, even if I owed everything I had to America, that I shouldn't be allowed to criticize it out of gratefulness? Or why do you assume I don't understand? What, exactly, don't I understand?

I'm not saying a majority of America is nationalistic. I'm just saying that the social consciousness has a far greater amount of nationalism than I am accustomed to, and I meet far more people than I expect who are nationalistic. And whatever you say, I'm going to keep pointing it out.

if you were drowing and a man pulled you out of the water and gave you fire, clothes and food and when you were well, you realize that this man was some old buzzard that killed your pet dog five years ago, would you still curse his name as you walk home?
i would hope not.

Damn your analogy. I'm the last person to be ungrateful to America, but your clothed and fed nonsense is complete rubbish. Not to mention the fact that America gave Hungary certainly no support, as the soviets got there first. When we came here, we came here with our own money and we've put far more into the system than we'll ever pull out. In terms of nations, America hasn't done anything for Hungary, and in terms of individuals, for me. I'm here basically because you're really rich so you have a lot of schools.

am i nationalistic? i dont really know. but i am bitter towards those who would take and not give. i am bitter towards those who fail to see thier freedom that is not an intitlement. no, it wasnt and never will be free as long as there are those who would love to shake it from sky and watch it burn for the sake of ignorance.

Talk to me about it. Hungary was oppressed by the Russians for 60 years. Freedom is a luxury. And before you get any farther, which countries did the most for the establishment of freedom? Oh yes, it'll be hard to make any list without including the British you dislike.

[Kraken]

You talk as if freedom of speech was invented in America

i know it wasnt, but where else was it ever so broadly applied and used in a society? hmmm? dear me, say not englanad! Protestants fled from there from persecution and...and...guess what? Founded America!

Human rights wasn't invented in America, it was adopted.

where did this come from? did i ever say it as such? hmmm...i think you are misunderstanding my points. let me break it down to at least 2nd grade level for you....my point is this: you are here in America Beatles, not any where else, but here: in the good old USA and you are getting a education here. oookay, thats established. now, whilst you are here in America, you are poking a finger at it and saying that it is bad, was bad and will always be bad unless it contorts to what your idea of what it should be.
following me so far?
My point is that you should be grateful that the United States of America exists and that the very university you are attending exists because if it didnt...where would poor beatles be? back at his toliet of a country called Hungary? George Sorros comes from there indeed! tell him to take his ass back there and help his people and get out of American Politics!
things have happened beatles, wither for good or for ill, they have happened and yet, all those things that have happened has made the USA great and far superior over any other country out there. like it or not, its true, or you wouldnt be over here getting your education dear. ahhhh:

I'm here basically because you're really rich so you have a lot of schools.

and guess what makes it great? all of those things that you fear.

Oh yes, it'll be hard to make any list without including the British you dislike.

i dislike the British? nay, i like them very much. they are at least in my top 10 countries.

Freedom is a luxury

your mistaken. it is not a luxury. surely such a luxury cannot be bought with the blood and sweat and tears of millions of Americans can it? instead, it is a gift from those who left it to us and it is a blessing. and it is something that will ever need to be protected from those who would see it gone.

I'm the last person to be ungrateful to America

pfft, you can be ungrateful to something is so many ways that you do not realize that you are doing it.

[Arthus]

I see we have a pro-Bush guy here...