That was the reason I liked itFreenhult wrote:People like seeing millions of troops. That was its charm.Kutolah wrote: Was there a huge difference between FAF and ME? Because ME's playerbase had like 30 times more than FAF's.
Shadow:
Sacking takes very few resources. Or it should. Only 2-3% of the total. If it is not, then that is a bug and needs to be fixed. 2-3% is not a lot. Also, why would sacking take land...
Walling is defensive strategy. I don't see anything wrong with it at all really. Its just come to a point on this game that only a few people play that have come to understand how the game actually works and know its ins and outs. Hence doing anything is easy. Lowering the defense of towers, I guess. But I don't think that's all we need.
As for the values, I'll look around.
Attacking wise:
The reason it is so hard to kill is because you leave them with $200 mil net on 500 acres. If you were smashing their army from the git go you wouldn't have a problem. Plus considering the added difficulty from attacking now, you wouldn't be grabbing as much land, except from defensively weak players. The average army could now defense exceptionally well and the game would become more of an arms race. Which I think is what we all want.
WoA Reset
- Freenhult
- 13th Division Captain
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:30 am
- Location: Valparaiso
- Contact:
We don't admin there. So no.Krueler wrote: OMG........something just went wrong on here:
http://www.promisanse.com/?main&auth=NjA2CjEyNTdkZmY5NjI3OWQ0Y2IwMTcwOWRkOWMzOTBlNDdiCjAKMTE=
Every account except 5 just got randomly destroyed!!! Does anyone know what the HELL happened? I was doing really good there!
Wow, so you did the math. Very good. Yeah, its a lot. But it used to be around 10%. Its still important. If you're leaving that much out, then its stupid. Also, if people punished others for sacking, it wouldn't be so common.3% is a lot. Over 31 attacks, 3% becomes over 60%. If we reduce the possibility of taking that much, people will be less inclined to keep defenses and land will flow bettter. Making sack takes land improves land flow overall, because you aren't faced witha choice between land and resources.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!
波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !
Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !
Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
- Slasher
- The FAF Forums SMEGHEAD!!! lol
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Good point. That's the reason murders aren't used so much anymore.Also, if people punished others for sacking, it wouldn't be so common.
Hmm this might be a stupid idea, but how about making it so that only 20 of the 31 attacks can be sack? I dunno, it might not work, but it popped into my head so I thought it'd be worth suggesting.
And? Right now it's too much, then it was too little. Did it ever occur to you that there might be a happy medium? Say, 1% per sack?Wow, so you did the math. Very good. Yeah, its a lot. But it used to be around 10%
Leaving that much out is stupid only because of the sacking possibility - massing resources has strategic advantages if you time things right. You don't like to play that way... fine. But at least allow others to do it and change it before your status quo drives this site even further into the ground.
Also, if more people played here, we wouldn't have an activity problem... Thank you for pointing out the obvious, but that fact isn't going to change things. People are not going to change their long run behaviour to try to get activity up. We can do it in the short run, but in the long, code changes are needed.Also, if people punished others for sacking, it wouldn't be so common.
Dev, did you change the maxxes for the top? I recall you saying it could be done, not sure if you ever actually did.
Phillip says:
Tell me more about your Undefined
- Freenhult
- 13th Division Captain
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Yeah. We thought 3% was that rate. Its enough to severely wound a person you're sacking, but then again. If you're sacking them 31 one times, they get to keep all their land.And? Right now it's too much, then it was too little. Did it ever occur to you that there might be a happy medium? Say, 1% per sack?
Well, you wouldn't know, because you never played the old game. But the whole metagame was about resource storing on the market and on your account. Shadow, seriously. Say something about me killing this game again. Please, ING SHOW ME WHERE I MAKE POLICY.Leaving that much out is stupid only because of the sacking possibility - massing resources has strategic advantages if you time things right. You don't like to play that way... fine. But at least allow others to do it and change it before your status quo drives this site even further into the ground.
Whatever, I just got DB access so I'm going to look at stuff. I'll talk to Nev once he shows back up and I'm going to go through S&B and start implementing . And we'll see how everything looks.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!
波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !
Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !
Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
Bah, all I know is that most people are happy to hear ideas, and you consistently shoot them down, so nothing ever gets done. Most of these ideas work well at other similar proms, and you shoot them down because for some reason you don't believe them despite lack of evidence.
So make sack take both land and resources, just reduced amounts of both. Then you get land flow and reduced resource massing. Explain to me what is wrong with this idea in the context of trying to increase landflow.but then again. If you're sacking them 31 one times, they get to keep all their land.
Market storing is fixed with 90% pull. But I see no problem with storing on the account - it should just be that sacking wont take it all and you need to do mage damage to get it all off. Then you get balance between defense and massing. People will be less inclined to spend all their cash building defenses, so you get more flow. Once again, explain how this would not work...But the whole metagame was about resource storing on the market and on your account
Phillip says:
Tell me more about your Undefined
I'm perfectly willing to implement so-called "stop-gap" measures. 
Personally, this is what I propose I do (effective immediately):
Implement reduced+shielded sack.
Increase hit limit on top person.
Reduce tower defence to 300 or 400 DP. Tower defence in this game is more powerful than any other Promi I know of, and we hardly have offence-favouring numbers.
I mean, hell, there's not a lot of players, so why don't we just experiment a bit with some simpler stuff?
By the way, calm down in here. Less of the accusations, less of the anger.
Personally, this is what I propose I do (effective immediately):
Implement reduced+shielded sack.
Increase hit limit on top person.
Reduce tower defence to 300 or 400 DP. Tower defence in this game is more powerful than any other Promi I know of, and we hardly have offence-favouring numbers.
I mean, hell, there's not a lot of players, so why don't we just experiment a bit with some simpler stuff?
By the way, calm down in here. Less of the accusations, less of the anger.
If you go down to the woods today, you better not go alone
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
As for having land+sack as a combined attack, I don't like that idea too much. Personally, I think that it would encourage more sacking. As it stands, sacking has something of an "opportunity cost" - you use turns, troops, and health to sack that you could have spent gathering land. When it's a 10% sack, obviously that's not such a big deal. Reduce the amount that one can sack, however, and it becomes a less beneficial equation. Sacking should always be a trade-off, in my opinion, not a nice fringe benefit while still getting land. I do agree with encouraging land flow, but I respectfully disagree that combining sack+land is a good idea. You're MORE likely to get irreparable resource damage that way, as a 31-hit limit means that you'll just make a few more land+sack attacks to make up for the reduced land take.
I'd rather give the reduced+shielded sack a trial run before we abandon the idea completely. Technically speaking, it's a 2-year-old proposal.
By the way, your math is off. 31 attacks at 2% sack (assuming maximum sack on every turn [unlikely] with shields up and that every attack goes through) means that you'll get 46.5% of the person's resources. Each time you take 2%, so they have 98% of their previous total left. 0.98^n is the proper equation for calculating the minimum remaining amount, where n is the number of attacks. 0.98^31 = 0.534574633, meaning that roughly 46.5% is the maximum you can take. Meanwhile, you've absolutely maxed them and basically declared war on them.
Buuuuut you know that. I just realised you were assuming 3%. The proposal is for 2-3%, with shields reducing it to 2/3 of that.
I'd rather give the reduced+shielded sack a trial run before we abandon the idea completely. Technically speaking, it's a 2-year-old proposal.
By the way, your math is off. 31 attacks at 2% sack (assuming maximum sack on every turn [unlikely] with shields up and that every attack goes through) means that you'll get 46.5% of the person's resources. Each time you take 2%, so they have 98% of their previous total left. 0.98^n is the proper equation for calculating the minimum remaining amount, where n is the number of attacks. 0.98^31 = 0.534574633, meaning that roughly 46.5% is the maximum you can take. Meanwhile, you've absolutely maxed them and basically declared war on them.
Buuuuut you know that. I just realised you were assuming 3%. The proposal is for 2-3%, with shields reducing it to 2/3 of that.
If you go down to the woods today, you better not go alone
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
As for Slasher's sack limit proposal - that's (potentially) a very good idea. A little harder to implement than some of the simpler suggestions, but possible.
Heh, funny when I think about it... Our days with the most players were back when the game was horribly balanced. $14 food sales, Grumm, and 20-30% sack, oh my! POLICE, courtesy of Beatles and myself, absolutely dominated that first non-beta set.
Heh, funny when I think about it... Our days with the most players were back when the game was horribly balanced. $14 food sales, Grumm, and 20-30% sack, oh my! POLICE, courtesy of Beatles and myself, absolutely dominated that first non-beta set.
If you go down to the woods today, you better not go alone
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
Another point for you all - it is extremely easy to change OP/DP numbers for troops. However, I'm not sure that's necessary at this point... Most of the numbers are relatively good, in my opinion. I'd like to see if weakening towers has any effect, first. QMT, a relatively successful game, has T1 with a 1:2 ratio - talk about defensive. They do, however, have weaker towers, so I'd like to take a gander at that first. It seems like towers are the crux of the problem, so let's attack that first.
Another idea is (perhaps) to make Surprise Attack ignore towers (this would be in addition to the tower nerf). Might get people actually using that sucker for once, despite the high losses. Yes, it's a Standard-type attack, but the 30% OP boost combined with tower ignoring could make it a worthwhile prospect.
Speaking of special attacks, anybody remember Kamikaze? Brooooooken. But SO AWESOME.
There needs to be a special round with that sucker reimplemented/re-enabled.
Another idea is (perhaps) to make Surprise Attack ignore towers (this would be in addition to the tower nerf). Might get people actually using that sucker for once, despite the high losses. Yes, it's a Standard-type attack, but the 30% OP boost combined with tower ignoring could make it a worthwhile prospect.
Speaking of special attacks, anybody remember Kamikaze? Brooooooken. But SO AWESOME.
If you go down to the woods today, you better not go alone
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
In case it wasn't obvious, I haven't made any changes yet. I want to observe this (hopefully) pleasant (from now on) conversation and get a bit more input before I muck around mid-set.
If you go down to the woods today, you better not go alone
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
You're MORE likely to get irreparable resource damage that way, as a 31-hit limit means that you'll just make a few more land+sack attacks to make up for the reduced land take.
I'd rather give the reduced+shielded sack a trial run before we abandon the idea completely. Technically speaking, it's a 2-year-old proposal. tongue.gif
Fair enough.
Could work, but new players are unlikely to learn about it, so it might not get much use outside the vet circle.Another idea is (perhaps) to make Surprise Attack ignore towers (this would be in addition to the tower nerf). Might get people actually using that sucker for once, despite the high losses. Yes, it's a Standard-type attack, but the 30% OP boost combined with tower ignoring could make it a worthwhile prospect.
Giving T1 a 2.5:2 or 1.5:1 edge or something like that could go a long way toward weakening the mage-walling strat that everyone does now. But yeah, the other troops are pretty well-balanced. I am not sure if it works like this yet or not, but you may want to balance it so that the troop production multipliers are such that you get equal OP per turn per troop. For example, if T1 has 2 offense and T3 has 6, you get 3 times more T1 than T3. I am not sure how it is balanced atm.Another point for you all - it is extremely easy to change OP/DP numbers for troops.
Never!By the way, your math is off.
I was hit well over 31 times in a row the other day by someone who was unclanned. I thought it was because you had raised the limit. POtential bug?In case it wasn't obvious, I haven't made any changes yet. I want to observe this (hopefully) pleasant (from now on) conversation and get a bit more input before I muck around mid-set. tongue.gif
Phillip says:
Tell me more about your Undefined
Solution: Fix the game guide, and add a note on the page itself about the newly added benefits of Surprise Attack. Sure, it's tacky, but it gets the point across.Shadow I wrote: Could work, but new players are unlikely to learn about it, so it might not get much use outside the vet circle.
I have no idea how troop production is balanced, if it is at all. The idea of balancing by OP hardly works, though, because each troop has a different OP:DP ratio. 2/2 = 1 for T1, 5/4 = 1.25 for T3. Furthermore, you have ol' T2, which is a 3:5 ratio.Giving T1 a 2.5:2 or 1.5:1 edge or something like that could go a long way toward weakening the mage-walling strat that everyone does now. But yeah, the other troops are pretty well-balanced. I am not sure if it works like this yet or not, but you may want to balance it so that the troop production multipliers are such that you get equal OP per turn per troop. For example, if T1 has 2 offense and T3 has 6, you get 3 times more T1 than T3. I am not sure how it is balanced atm.
Fractional OP might be a good idea. 2.25:2, 2.5:2, or 2:1.75 all have potential. I actually didn't think of fractional OP/DP... We'll see.
Never!
Perhaps... Huh.I was hit well over 31 times in a row the other day by someone who was unclanned. I thought it was because you had raised the limit. POtential bug?
If you go down to the woods today, you better not go alone
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
The only thing with strong sacking is this, it gives people no choice but to spend all their resources or have them get stolen and used agaisnt them. So you can either buy lots of one type or buy moderate amounts of every type. Usually, if you can't do anything else, you might as well be an ass and try to stop others from getting land. Theres no way to mass resources or troops, so nothing else to do than smash everyone. This leads to one guy dominating everyone, and we all see where that leads. This is ALWAYS the case. So, if you like the status quo, means you aren't playing because either I have enslaved the game or Shadow has or you don't care about sitting on 8k lands and never having anything.
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