Neoconservatism vs conservatism

[Gen. Volkov]

Just curious. Can you say exactly what makes President Bush not a terrible president?

I said Sr. wasn't too bad, I didn't say anything much about Jr. George H.W. Bush was not a horrible president, by anyones standards. George W. Bush, well, I think the sooner he is out office, the better. Our worst president? Probably not, but certainly not a good one.

I take exception to that. You talk as if freedom of speech was invented in America... documents in 1689 and 1789 in England and France, respectively, guaranteed it.

First amendment was ratified, 1791, accepted by Congress 1789. France's "declaration of the rights of man and of the citizen" was accepted by their lawmaking body 1789, before they drafted their Constitution. So France and America got it at the same time. (Not disputing that America wasn't the inventor of human rights, it's quite obvious that we didn't, just disputing your dates.) I cannot find the UK document you are referring too and in fact there were actually quite a few limitations on what could be said during colonial times. For example, it was a crime to criticize the government. It wasn't until 1694 that their rather elaborate system of licensing was done away with. Their first actual law about it does not seem to occur until 1998, though in practice Britain has had Free Speech for a long time.

[Kraken]

I see we have a pro-Bush guy here...

and...?
wait a minute...*gasp* ....you must not be one? oh no!
how utterly sureal and original of you artus!
shame!

seriously though, the conversation isnt about that and if you would care to read what has been posted....maybe, just maybe, you will get some grasp of what i am pro and not pro about.

[The Beatles]

I think our argument is becoming reasonable, Kraken. I still disagree on a number of points, but not having time now, will respond tomorrow.

i know it wasnt, but where else was it ever so broadly applied and used in a society? hmmm? dear me, say not englanad! Protestants fled from there from persecution and...and...guess what? Founded America!

Oh yes? Which country took the initiative to end slavery, for instance? By contrast, which Western country (apart from South Africa) segregated black and white people until the 60s on public services? I'm not saying the US played a very significant role in the development of public freedoms, but hardly as large as you are making it out to appear.

now, whilst you are here in America, you are poking a finger at it and saying that it is bad, was bad and will always be bad unless it contorts to what your idea of what it should be.

I'm not. I'm not anti-American, but I'm not pro-American either. If you look at anything I've said in the past you can't discern anything but that. I am, yes, actively anti-Bush now, although I supported a majority of his policies until about 2004.

following me so far?
My point is that you should be grateful that the United States of America exists and that the very university you are attending exists because if it didnt...where would poor beatles be? back at his toliet of a country called Hungary? George Sorros comes from there indeed! tell him to take his ass back there and help his people and get out of American Politics!

I'm very grateful you are a rich and liberal country... I'm ungrateful for your health system, which is so broken I have to go back to, of all places, Hungary, to get decent healthcare. It's not broken for the rich, of course, but if it doesn't work for anyone, I maintain it's broken.

things have happened beatles, wither for good or for ill, they have happened and yet, all those things that have happened has made the USA great and far superior over any other country out there. like it or not, its true, or you wouldnt be over here getting your education dear. ahhhh:

I'm here because you're rich and liberal. Does wealth make America great? Is Saudi Arabia great? Russia? There is no inherent value there. The fact that you are also liberal is great, not terribly unusual, but a great combo. Is there any non-transient glory in that? Before you say the reasons for wealth were political or whatever, they weren't. Natural resources and isolation.

"has made the USA great and far superior over any other country out there" <-- that's what I call nationalism, and that's what I'm dead-set against, btw.

[Kraken]

fair enough! goodnight sir.

garn...where to start....

ah!

I'm not saying the US played a very significant role in the development of public freedoms, but hardly as large as you are making it out to appear.

this point is muddied and neither of us (at least on this end) can see where it is going, because i have never said that is was grand nor do i care a golden carp about public freedoms because our views on said public freedoms vary.

I'm not anti-American, but I'm not pro-American either

could you be more contradictory? i think my point about this is simple enough: A) your not an American because of reason A, i dont care about your opinion about America C) because of reason B, i fail to see your side on the matter. & C) im sure that i can eventually care about your opinion if Hungarians ever rule the world.
but! enough being a smarty, serously beatles, that is contradictory and to be Anti-Bush...wtf? how is being that make a difference on how you feel about America?? America to me is the Constitution, The Bill of Rights and its Citizens. the jackasses who get elected to office just happen to be a conciquence of the three and even though the last is a reflection on contemporary America, the first two is a foundation that other nations envy.
and when is the last time you have looked at bill or movement President Bush has done over the past three years? or has your attention, like too many others, been on the Ugly Monster on the Lawn?

I'm ungrateful for your health system, which is so broken I have to go back to, of all places, Hungary, to get decent healthcare

decent healthcare? or is it FREE healthcare that you return to Hungary for? God forbid that doctors and hospitals can make what they want in a capitalistic country! i mean, everyone thinks that healthcare is a entitlement! well...guess what.....ITS NOT. do, go get your decent healthcare, but i tell you what, America has some of the best doctors and surgeons in the world...dont make me pull up stats...
oh, here is another shocker, if a rich person and i went to the same doctor with no insurance...guess what...we would pay the same thing...

Does wealth make America great?

when did i ever mention anything about weatlh? ? ? i have never once said anything about Americas wealth my dear beatles! to me, money isnt everything. but too many hold monatary to the heavens as the great savior.

Before you say the reasons for wealth were political or whatever, they weren't. Natural resources and isolation

im confused on this point...clarify please.

that's what I call nationalism, and that's what I'm dead-set against, btw.

so? whats so bad about loving your country? what is so bad for being willing to die for said country? what is so horrible not wanting people to bash your country? Its mine and it is my childrens. if i have nationalism, then great. im not ashamed. why should i be?

[The Beatles]

fyi, I replied above. Use your space to respond, then I can reuse this. Or whatever.

[Kraken]

did the same

[Ruddertail]

What Beatles is objecting to is not love of country, but the feeling that one's country is the greatest country.

However, I'd disagree here, Beatles. In most cases, there will be some country that is the greatest country in the world. Is it wrong, if you have good reason, to think your country is that country? To my mind, nationalism is the belief that your country is always right and somehow superior to others. Not the view that it's currently the greatest country, but that somehow being American means you're better then somebody from England or Canada, or that America is morally superior to these countries.

(If that makes sense)

[The Beatles]

Well, what standard do you define "great" by, Ruddertail? I don't believe there is ever a greatest country. By any conceivable metric you can rank countries and obtain a best one. GDP? America wins. Average GDP? Luxembourg wins. Healtchare penetration? Sweden wins. Economic impact? Denmark wins. Etc. etc. Whatever. Don't nitpick if my stats are outdated.

could you be more contradictory?

No. I'm neither anti-American nor pro-American. I like a lot of things about it, and I dislike some things about it.

but! enough being a smarty, serously beatles, that is contradictory and to be Anti-Bush...wtf? how is being that make a difference on how you feel about America?? America to me is the Constitution, The Bill of Rights and its Citizens. the jackasses who get elected to office just happen to be a conciquence of the three and even though the last is a reflection on contemporary America, the first two is a foundation that other nations envy.
and when is the last time you have looked at bill or movement President Bush has done over the past three years? or has your attention, like too many others, been on the Ugly Monster on the Lawn?

Just making clear that some statements that I make might be anti-Bush but not meant in any way to be anti-American...
And the last time I made any serious look into Bush's policies was about 2 years ago, so you're right, my views may be outdated. But I'd be surprised if he's changed so much.

decent healthcare? or is it FREE healthcare that you return to Hungary for? God forbid that doctors and hospitals can make what they want in a capitalistic country! i mean, everyone thinks that healthcare is a entitlement! well...guess what.....ITS NOT. do, go get your decent healthcare, but i tell you what, America has some of the best doctors and surgeons in the world...dont make me pull up stats...
oh, here is another shocker, if a rich person and i went to the same doctor with no insurance...guess what...we would pay the same thing... ohmy.gif

That's your opinion. I think healthcare is an element of social justice, so do many people, but it's irrelevant really. You have your opinion and I have mine. As for doctors and surgeons, yes, some of the best, so has Sweden and Germany... rich countries tend to have good doctors...

when did i ever mention anything about weatlh? ? ? i have never once said anything about Americas wealth my dear beatles! to me, money isnt everything. but too many hold monatary to the heavens as the great savior.

The only reason I brought up wealth was because you brought up that I am studying in America. I am studying in America because it is wealthy and liberal...

so? whats so bad about loving your country? what is so bad for being willing to die for said country? what is so horrible not wanting people to bash your country? Its mine and it is my childrens. if i have nationalism, then great. im not ashamed. why should i be?

Nothing wrong about that. There is something wrong in thinking your country is greatest on Earth, because if you think that it makes it hard to learn from other countries... and I'm sure I could name many ways in which America could learn from other countries. It's obvious that I feel much less strongly about Hungary than you do because Hungary is far less advanced (because of the damn Russians), so I can sympathize with your feelings. However, geographical isolation also leads to nationalism.

[Kraken]

*yawn*

i will respond in the morning...ZzzzZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Nuclear Raunch]

[quote=""Kraken's PM on Apr 28 2006"]
why do have to bring politics here?!??!?!?!

arrrrrrrrrrgh!!!!![/quote]

Oh what a difference a year makes

[Kraken]

a year indeed! the reason i did not want politics here is for the same reason i did not want polotics brought to LO. remember those flame wars nuke?
i rather just kept up the chit chat on too many other things and indeed, this post probably would of died by now if it hadnt been for me getting into it with beatles.
but thier are certian things that peeps should never discuss if they wish to keep thier heads level and that is: polotics, religon & critizing others football teams.

now!

I don't believe there is ever a greatest country

you see, this is how you feel, but it isnt how i feel. i do not look at every country and rate them. why do such a thing? i love my country and the rest can go fry. who cares about GDP? all i want is my land, my kids, my guns and my wife and to be out of earshot when liberal homo's decide that they want to world to look at thier nipples and feel sorry for them for it. (i.e. Nuke on a daily basis)

I like a lot of things about it, and I dislike some things about it.

isnt this the way of everything, everywhere, everywho? no country is perfect, no person is perfect (unless your nuke), so what does it matter? i get it, you only want what you can get and take as long as you can do so without your feelings being hurt. is that it? you want a society where you can go and have everything ladi-da and not have a care whilst you wisk your way through your merry life. guess what? its not going to happen. at some point, you have to be realistic and realize that shaking your head and wagging your tounge isnt going to do jack, especially if your a foriegner.

. But I'd be surprised if he's changed so much.

just keep burying your head in the sand...its almost over now.

That's your opinion. I think healthcare is an element of social justice, so do many people, but it's irrelevant really. You have your opinion and I have mine. As for doctors and surgeons, yes, some of the best, so has Sweden and Germany... rich countries tend to have good doctors...

okay, if healthcare is a element of social justice, then answer these simple questions:
1: who decides how much money a doctor can charge?
2: Who decides who will be a doctor or nurse when they do it for thier own reasons?
3: what percentage of doctors do you think actually go into buisness because they have a common love for common man, not the almighty $$$$$
4: who is going to pay for these doctors and nurses?
5: before you answer #4, just be aware that peeps hate paying more & more taxes to crutch up the usless out there.
6: if healthcare is no longer privitized in America, then guess what..you get the crap that is going on in Europe & Canada.
7: government control of the healthcare system is NOT apart of a democratic society. I wish, like a majority of Americans, for the government to shrink, not grow.


[/QUOTE]I am studying in America because it is wealthy and liberal

no, you are studing in america because the schools are the best and because what you can get out of it.

There is something wrong in thinking your country is greatest on Earth, because if you think that it makes it hard to learn from other countries...

what in the hell do we want to learn from other countries? why in the hell would we want to learn from other countries? what in the hell do other countries learn from us? why do you think that it is not prudent to learn from your own mistakes and triumphs?

geographical isolation also leads to nationalism.

how in the hell are we geographicaly isolated? in this day and age of technology, no one is seperated from another thousands of miles away. i understand the Canada and Mexico are our closest neighbors, but believe me, i am very happy that two oceans seperate us from all the garbage out there on the other sides of them. now if we could just build those walls......



oh, and thanks BoatButt for the clarification.

[Freenhult]

okay, if healthcare is a element of social justice, then answer these simple questions:
1: who decides how much money a doctor can charge?
2: Who decides who will be a doctor or nurse when they do it for thier own reasons?
3: what percentage of doctors do you think actually go into buisness because they have a common love for common man, not the almighty $$$$$
4: who is going to pay for these doctors and nurses?
5: before you answer #4, just be aware that peeps hate paying more & more taxes to crutch up the usless out there.
6: if healthcare is no longer privitized in America, then guess what..you get the crap that is going on in Europe & Canada.
7: government control of the healthcare system is NOT apart of a democratic society. I wish, like a majority of Americans, for the government to shrink, not grow.

...Interesting. Perhaps if you lived in a family where you had to pay you'd understand Kraken. My knee surgery costed over $30,000. For 3 hrs of surgery and 2 hrs of recovery. Because we had such wonderful insurance we only had to pay about a 10th of that.

So I claim BS on your claim. Doctors and nurses are supposed to HELP people. Christ. Hospitals are supposed to be NON-PROFIT orginizations. I don't see why it costs $5000 to use the freaking bedpan.

"7: government control of the healthcare system is NOT apart of a democratic society. I wish, like a majority of Americans, for the government to shrink, not grow."

...BS. Thats the stupidest thing you said. And worrying about what our kids eat in school is part of the democratic process. Or banning what type of music kids can listen to inside/outside of school (Oh yes. This HAS happened. Grand Rapid Michigan) No. The government is there to SERVICE me. Thats it. So if I want free freaking Heatlhcare, up the goddang taxes and give it to everyone. Just like they did in Massachusetts. (Guess who my 1st choice for pres is so far).

[Nuclear Raunch]

I never saw any political debates at LO, but considering they were all a bunch of right-wing Christian Packers fans I wouldn't be at all surprised, it's a bad combination.

isnt this the way of everything, everywhere, everywho? no country is perfect, no person is perfect (unless your nuke), so what does it matter? i get it, you only want what  you can get and take as long as you can do so without your feelings being hurt. is that it? you want a society where you can go and have everything ladi-da and not have a care whilst you wisk your way through your merry life. guess what? its not going to happen. at some point, you have to be realistic and realize that shaking your head and wagging your tounge isnt going to do jack, especially if your a foriegner.

Well I could use those same words when you talk about what you don't like about the Packers (matter of fact in our last conversation you were talking about their draft being crappy) or when you talk about some Christians (you're snake handling friends) or when you talk about some of the things wrong with the Republican Party (illegal immigrants for one)

what in the hell do we want to learn from other countries? why in the hell would we want to learn from other countries? what in the hell do other countries learn from us? why do you think that it is not prudent to learn from your own mistakes and triumphs?

When we take #1 in every statistical category we can consider saying there's nothing to learn from others. They've learned a lot, both good and bad, from us. And I can tell you from personal experience that learning from your own mistakes isn't nearly as good as learning from someone elses mistake. We actually have a name for a species that refuses to learn from others' mistakes, they're called lemmings.

how in the hell are we geographicaly isolated?

www.map.com

[Kraken 5]

my

tages dont work properly and im gonna spam the board until that gets fixed

[Kraken]

Freen:

Interesting. Perhaps if you lived in a family where you had to pay you'd understand Kraken.

erm...i have a wife and 3 kids... so i..uh... DO PAY.

Doctors and nurses are supposed to HELP people. Christ. Hospitals are supposed to be NON-PROFIT orginizations. I don't see why it costs $5000 to use the freaking bedpan

doctors and nurses become doctors and nurses for thier own reasons. and no, no no no no, hospitals are not supposed to be Non-Profit, *laughs* and if they charge $5000 for usage of a bedpan, thier buisness.
i suggest going to a community health clinic or something, if you wish to see what a non profit place is like. *laughs*

No. The government is there to SERVICE me. Thats it. So if I want free freaking Heatlhcare, up the goddang taxes and give it to everyone. Just like they did in Massachusetts.

*laughs*, of course they are there to service you, but! if you wish to be a sheep in a government pen, its your buisness and oh, i seriously dobut the taxes you pay actually go for anything too big, so, it wouldnt be out of your pocket that your free health care comes out of. call BS all of you want, but do try and be...hmmm...intellegent about it....

----------------------------------------

Nuke:

And I can tell you from personal experience that learning from your own mistakes isn't nearly as good as learning from someone elses mistake

wow. and that is the least of the crap that spewed forth. if you see someone fail a test and your supposed to take it next, i guess that...oh never mind, its just the type of response one would expect from someone who prefers to have his way handed to him instead of making it on his own. poor baby.

NexT!