Presidential Vote

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Shadow I
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Post by Shadow I »

CO2 does not spread from high concentrations to low concentrations.
Erm, yes it does. That's one of the gas laws. Diffusions also causes it to tend to mix evenly (eventually) with the rest of the gas surrouding the planet, although the rate is sped up/slowed indirectly by various other factors such as temperature. If one country produces a ton of CO2, the high concentration is going to speed up the rate of spreading to areas that dont produce as much. If that didn't happen, everyone in the US would have a much harder time breathing than they do now ;)

back to my original question, what isf, say, the republicans get 35% and democrats get 40% of the vote and the third party gets 25%. Not that it would ever happen, I'm just curious.
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Post by bjornredtail »

Gen. Volkov wrote:
Global warming is not a black and white issue. Its been shown that excess carbon dioxide in the air occurs as a response to the earth warming, not as a cause.
Oh what a big fat stinking load of BS.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#q1

Go read it yourself. It's from NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration). The first two "FAQs" are a direct contradiction of your statement. There is NO debate about whether humans have been increasing the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. There is also NO debate on the the fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. I'm tired of this stupid debate. Global Warming is real, and it's at least partially our fault. I didn't like Gore's stupid ass movie, but that didn't mean he wasn't right in the fundamentals.
And those results have been influenced by the scientific dishonesty I described. This makes it MORALLY WRONG and threatening to your credibility to look for or publish evidence that contradicts human-caused global climate change, as doing so would advance the idea that there can be debate on the issue, and thus slow down action on the issue.
  Global wamring wont destroy the earth, windy, thats not the point. The question is whether or not the life that is on the surface of earth (aka me and you) lives through it.

if global warming exists and we do soemthing about it, we live for sure

if global warming exists and we do nothing about it, we diefor sure

if global warming doesnt exist and we do soemthing about it, we get a cleaner earth

if global warming doesnt exist and we do nothing about it, self riteous conservative morons get to say 'I told you so'

So basically, doing something about it is win-win, if only for the sake of our pride.
The problem is, dealing with 'global warming' isn't free. Every proposals I've heard would make the United States even less attractive for manufacturing, would massively encroach on personal freedoms and possibly cripple the economy, which would likely kill more people than global warming ever could. Just because the results CAN be catastrophic doesn't mean we should prevent the it at ALL costs. For example, an space-ailen invasion would be catastrophic, but it so unlikely that it wouldn't be worth the cost to prepare. The same may be true of global climate change.
Of course, every single time we've had this argument in the past you've dodged the obvious solution of reprocessing. France reprocesses almost all of its nuclear waste, gaining more energy from it, and even imports nuclear waste of other countries (which, incidentally, is another way America could dispose of spent fuel if it didn't want to reprocess it -- export).
Reprocessing doesn't eliminate the waste, it only concentrates it. At the end of the day will still have to deal with engineering a depository for the waste, even if we have extracted many more times the energy from the fuel before we do so.

Not in racism -- genetically heterogenous, mulattos were treated just as badly if not worse in racist societies, including America until the 70s. So it's still a watershed election; but I can rephrase it if you like: if a mulatto is elected president, we'll know that a majority in America have shed their racist past.
The thing is he's not portraying himself as a mixed-race individual, he's portraying himself as a black individual. I think he's largely doing this for political advantage, though I could be wrong and he could honestly think of himself as a black guy.
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Post by Kraken »

Beatles,
Speeches, proposals and interviews plus! the fact that people in Europe love the guy doesnt mean a thing when Obama hasnt written one piece of legislation.
also, just because this country might elect a black man would not seal any deal on racism.
Who cares what some of your socialist chums over seas think man! this isnt thier country! they ruined thiers, they should leave thier opinion to thier own borders.
i guess the whole womans sufferage doesnt register in your mind at all.
who cares if he's black?
its the fact that he is the most liberal senator in US history plus the most inexperienced canadate to ever run for President gives him a big fat NO from me.

also, hasnt anyone heard of Clean Coal Technology?
i guess Beatles hasnt at the very least...

Shadow: "if global warming doesnt exist and we do nothing about it, self riteous conservative morons get to say 'I told you so'"
now, to quote you on this, wouldnt it go both ways? the self riteous Liberal morons get to say 'i told you so' ?
look, and this may be hard for you to believe, but i know plenty of Conservatives, including my own wife who is one of the biggest, who thinks that Global Warming is real. so quit generalizing. not just you: but everyone.

i think McCain hit it on the head with his acceptance speech when he said (and im not quoting verbatim, but doing the best i can from memory):
"lets stop coming up with a something different just because the opposition came up with something, instead, lets look at all ideas and figure out what's best."
this should inspire anyone to think outside of the box and realize that just because you are a Liberal (or you just think you are) you automatically go for Global Warming in all its nonsense or that you are Conservative (or think you might be) you say blah to the whole mess and call it nonsense.
me? ive already stated my point of view: its BS.
putting fart bags on a cow to catch Carbon.
saying Moose burps are harmful to the enviroment.
does anyone here realize that some nuts out there are so whacked in the head because of this global warming craze that they think that the human race should cease to exist in order to save the planet?
like i said: its a mental disease to believe in it.

now!
please, if your going to talk global warming, bare in mind that this is a political thread so add that in it too!
all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

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Post by The Beatles »

Legislation? He's introduced plenty of bills if that's what you mean.

I just brought up my friends in Europe (who are mostly not socialist, whatever you think) to illustrate that the rest of the world does view this as an election about racism. Go out of your tiny sphere and ask if you want.

Oh, and the socialists didn't "ruin" Europe; they improved it. So did moderate socialists in America, like FDR.

What about women's suffrage? A female president won't be put to the test right now. So what?
its the fact that he is the most liberal senator in US history plus the most inexperienced canadate to ever run for President gives him a big fat NO from me.
Heh. Of course the Republican media have portrayed every opposing presidential candidate in the history of their dirty campaigns as "the most liberal ever". Go back to the speeches. They said it about Gore, Kerry, Clinton, Carter, whoever cared to run against them. The rhetoric is old.
also, hasnt anyone heard of Clean Coal Technology?
I think we all have. I was referring to the damage the actual extraction causes, not the burning of it.
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Post by Kraken »

Legislation? He's introduced plenty of bills if that's what you mean.
introduced? did he write any of them?
I just brought up my friends in Europe (who are mostly not socialist, whatever you think) to illustrate that the rest of the world does view this as an election about racism. Go out of your tiny sphere and ask if you want.
i dont care if they are MickeyMousists. call me a Nationalist, tiny sphere thinker, whatever: this is my country and i could give to farts to the wind what the rest of the world thinks about who or why we elect someone. too bad Europeans forget that they too have had slavery...

Oh, and the socialists didn't "ruin" Europe; they improved it. So did moderate socialists in America, like FDR.

What about women's suffrage? A female president won't be put to the test right now. So what?
hmm...so it matters what others think in other countries about America, but not what Americans think about other countries. improved my arse. but! you are intitiled to your opinion. hmm...why arent you getting your college education there.....?
and! every step is a great step! a femal Vice President is better than No female vice president! a Black (true black that is) Female Secretary of State is better than any thing before it. but! Condaleza Rice has never crossed your mind has it?
racism indeed!
Heh. Of course the Republican media have portrayed every opposing presidential candidate in the history of their dirty campaigns as "the most liberal ever". Go back to the speeches. They said it about Gore, Kerry, Clinton, Carter, whoever cared to run against them. The rhetoric is old.
hmmmm.......care to look at his meager voting record? see that he has the highest leberal voting record in the US Senate history? care to do that Beatles?
of course, you have taken time to read all about Governor Palins record (so you say and i do not believe) maybe you go the the Governments own website and read for yourself Obama Hussien's voting record.

all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

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The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
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Post by Arthus »

Obama Hussien's
Give it a rest. It's not funny and is stupid.
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Post by Freenhult »

bjornredtail wrote: And those results have been influenced by the scientific dishonesty I described. This makes it MORALLY WRONG and threatening to your credibility to look for or publish evidence that contradicts human-caused global climate change, as doing so would advance the idea that there can be debate on the issue, and thus slow down action on the issue.
Oh god man. Lemme tell you. It wasn't 10 or 100 scientists that did this data. It was thousands. Thousands of my coleges and will be. Even I -have- made data for this that was contributed to last years report. LOL? That was a class project though, so its just from my school. But still. There was not dishonesty. The facts are facts. That is what science is. Meteorology has nothing to gain from lying. We aren't getting new radars or anything. So why lie? It doesn't add up Bjorn.
The problem is, dealing with 'global warming' isn't free. Every proposals I've heard would make the United States even less attractive for manufacturing, would massively encroach on personal freedoms and possibly cripple the economy, which would likely kill more people than global warming ever could. Just because the results CAN be catastrophic doesn't mean we should prevent the it at ALL costs. For example, an space-ailen invasion would be catastrophic, but it so unlikely that it wouldn't be worth the cost to prepare. The same may be true of global climate change.
Gotta start somewhere. Might as well with new industry and industry thats remodeling. Also tax incentives might help.
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Post by Kraken »

Arthus wrote:
Obama Hussien's
Give it a rest. It's not funny and is stupid.
Give what up??
ITS HIS MIDDLE NAME.

fine, i will just refer to him as Barak H. Obama. :P
all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

..."I'm sorry, but I really can't see anything redeeming in your philosophy other than that dinosaurs are cute."
~Beatles

The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
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Post by bjornredtail »

Gotta start somewhere. Might as well with new industry and industry thats remodeling. Also tax incentives might help.
Indeed. In the quite likely event that human CO<sub>2</sub> emissions have no measurable impact on global climate patterns, the fuels are finitely limited. It would be better to slowly walk toward the exits than to be forced to make a sudden change, either by a misguided 'global warming' panic or by the exaction of fossil fuels. This why stupid ideas like Carbon caps (which don't even apply to the worst offenders in terms of tons of Carbon Dioxide/GDP) are so... stupid. On a national front, I'd like to see tariffs on imported fossil fuels, particularly oil, at rates that would kick in if consumer/industrial fuel costs plummet. Yes, it's government intervention, but it is necessary to prevent other nation-states from manipulating the market to keep us dependent.
Oh god man. Lemme tell you. It wasn't 10 or 100 scientists that did this data. It was thousands. Thousands of my coleges and will be. Even I -have- made data for this that was contributed to last years report. LOL? That was a class project though, so its just from my school. But still. There was not dishonesty. The facts are facts. That is what science is. Meteorology has nothing to gain from lying. We aren't getting new radars or anything. So why lie? It doesn't add up Bjorn.
The AMA will pull your certification if you question global warming. This is a clear sign that you will loose any credibility you have if your data contradicts these 'thousands of scientists', even if your experiments are repeatable.
Heh. Of course the Republican media have portrayed every opposing presidential candidate in the history of their dirty campaigns as "the most liberal ever". Go back to the speeches. They said it about Gore, Kerry, Clinton, Carter, whoever cared to run against them. The rhetoric is old.
That doesn't mean it's wrong...
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Post by The Beatles »

Reprocessing at least compacts the waste enormously and makes it easier to deal with. Plus, exporting waste is right now still a good solution.

As I said before, mulattos and blacks were often treated the same. I can't speak for what Obama's motivations are, just as how I and my friends perceive the election.
introduced? did he write any of them?
How should I know? Did John McCain write any of the legislation he introduced? It's typically the case that yes, but we have no real way of knowing.
hmm...so it matters what others think in other countries about America, but not what Americans think about other countries. improved my arse. but! you are intitiled to your opinion. hmm...why arent you getting your college education there.....?
and! every step is a great step! a femal Vice President is better than No female vice president! a Black (true black that is) Female Secretary of State is better than any thing before it. but! Condaleza Rice has never crossed your mind has it?
I didn't say it mattered what they thought. I don't give a toss what you think, and equally you probably don't give a toss what I or any of my friends think.

Bully for Condoleezza Rice. It's good stuff. Does that mean we can consider the question resolved? No.

As you've asked about a dozen times before, and I've replied a dozen times, I am studying here (not quite getting my education, just a degree) because America is a rich country that invests in science, and this creates opportunities. If America were to become poor or stop investing in science (neither of which is likely), I would leave, and obviously you'd find a great drop in immigration rates.
hmmmm.......care to look at his meager voting record? see that he has the highest leberal voting record in the US Senate history? care to do that Beatles?
I don't see that at all. His voting record is that of a moderate conservative, which is still quite radical for US politics. True radicals are people like Kucinich (pity he's a nutjob), Nader, Eugene Debs, various Kennedys, etc. etc. FDR was far to the left of Obama. Rest assured that if Obama were truly very liberal, he would have no electoral chances.

Shadow, if your scenario occurred, the Democrats would win. Any party that nabs the most votes wins. As I've said, there are no coalitions, it's all or nothing. So third-party votes are wasted votes in the presidential election.
The AMA will pull your certification if you question global warming. This is a clear sign that you will loose any credibility you have if your data contradicts these 'thousands of scientists', even if your experiments are repeatable.
Though it sounds like a despicable practice, I wouldn't worry about it until it happened. That is, until the AMA actually pulled your certification for publishing genuine data. Has that happened?
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Post by Tetigustas shadowson »

the same old political system is coming to an end, and palin wasn't trained by those same old dinosaurs.
you guys are of the new "informed generation" right,
so how is it they can still feed you the same kinda crap
they've been stuffing down Americans throats since the 40's.
it hasn't changed for decades, so why do you believe it all?.

as for carbon this is the facts according to the life cycle of the carbon molecule,
no matter how much crud we fill the planetary bubble with, it will still cycle the same.

Image
you guys know this diagram so why be fooled by political hype
we will proly not survive the max carbon level
but
the plant life brought in by tourist fishermen when they don't clean their waders or boots,
those new species of plant 'not from my region' will remain for centuries
Also Alaska has lost more perma-frost in the last ten years then ever before,
I have memories of sitting my kids on a glacier that is now some 25 miles away from that spot.
and now huge pieces of southern arctic ice is vanishing from one day to the next.

so tell me guys
what is so damned bad about McCain and palin Huh?
what about nixon?
what about dozens of members of Congress each and every year escape DWI/DUI arrests by invoking their congressional privilege of immunity (Article one, Section 6).

so how bad could they be?
we have had criminals in politics for ever, whats the difference?

lets work to fix it, not bitch till some politician fixes it for us, its time we spoke up don't let your voice be.
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Post by Gen. Volkov »

CO2 does not spread from high concentrations to low concentrations. Nor would that work in the pool example. If you pee in a pool, the pee doesn't spread out through the entire pool. At least for a very long time. Even so, the distance between pee molecules would make it hidden.
Yes it does Freen, that's basic chemistry. Gases diffuse down the concentration and pressure gradient. If the partial pressure of CO2 is high in one location and lower in another location, the CO2 will move toward the area of lower concentration quite rapidly. Pee in a pool will diffuse throughout the whole pool in a matter of hours, and gases flow much faster than liquids.
back to my original question, what isf, say, the republicans get 35% and democrats get 40% of the vote and the third party gets 25%. Not that it would ever happen, I'm just curious.
Then the democrats would win Shadow. It's happened before. It's why Wilson was elected. Or were you asking about congress?
And those results have been influenced by the scientific dishonesty I described. This makes it MORALLY WRONG and threatening to your credibility to look for or publish evidence that contradicts human-caused global climate change, as doing so would advance the idea that there can be debate on the issue, and thus slow down action on the issue
Oh BS bjorn. There's no scientific dishonesty here. Freen already said it, but the data has been collected by literally thousands of sicentists, and been reviewed by even more.
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Post by Freenhult »

Gen. Volkov wrote: Yes it does Freen, that's basic chemistry. Gases diffuse down the concentration and pressure gradient. If the partial pressure of CO2 is high in one location and lower in another location, the CO2 will move toward the area of lower concentration quite rapidly. Pee in a pool will diffuse throughout the whole pool in a matter of hours, and gases flow much faster than liquids.
Not in reality it doesn't. If that were so Volk, you'd have a uniform distribution over the Earth with hotspots. However, that isn't the case. Why doesn't High and Low pressure get filled? Why do they move across the surface? Because this isn't a uniform liquid with normal fluid dynamics. Its far more complicated than that.

Also, if what you were saying were true. Why would water vapor levels vary? Obviously, it rained today. So we have a lot of water vapor. However, we don't find much over the desert. The concentration of water vapor there is low compared to say, Europe. Yet you don't see the mean flow of water vapor moving towards a desert.

The example you're thinking of only works when you have one gas or maybe a few. The fact is the atmosphere is huge. It takes a lot of something in one place to really move around and get going.

Volcanic ash when spewed into the atmosphere can make its way around the world. But it doesn't go everywhere, and it doesn't go to areas of "low concentration".
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Post by bjornredtail »

As I said before, mulattos and blacks were often treated the same. I can't speak for what Obama's motivations are, just as how I and my friends perceive the election.
Maybe in the eyes of racist whites. I'm sure there are racist blacks who will think of Obama is being too white to diverse their vote on account of being a 'black' guy.
Oh BS bjorn. There's no scientific dishonesty here. Freen already said it, but the data has been collected by literally thousands of sicentists, and been reviewed by even more.
All of whom face the threat of loosing credibility and funding for attempting to refute global climate change. Even if the facts were that clear, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to have an attitude, like yours, that discourages scientific discussion and investigation in the matter, which IS HAPPENING.
Though it sounds like a despicable practice, I wouldn't worry about it until it happened. That is, until the AMA actually pulled your certification for publishing genuine data. Has that happened?
I don't know. It's still a matter of explicit policy for the American Meteorological Society (should have said AMS) to do that. It would be like COMPTIA threatening to pull your A+ for talking about Linux. Even if they never had to go through the threat, it would still have a chilling effect on folks talking about Linux.
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Post by Gen. Volkov »

Not in reality it doesn't. If that were so Volk, you'd have a uniform distribution over the Earth with hotspots. However, that isn't the case. Why doesn't High and Low pressure get filled? Why do they move across the surface? Because this isn't a uniform liquid with normal fluid dynamics. Its far more complicated than that.
OK, Freen, A) If what you are saying was true, the atmospheric composition should vary greatly over the earth's surface. Not just CO2 level, but O2 levels and nitrogen levels. They don't, the relative concentrations of all gases over the earth's surface are pretty much stable relative to each other, all over the globe. O2 levels in the atmosphere don't spike very much over areas of high plant activity, and they don't sink much over areas of low plant activity. Oh, and B ) Areas of high pressure and low pressure do get filled, what the hell do you think wind is? It's the movement of air from high to low pressure.
Also, if what you were saying were true. Why would water vapor levels vary? Obviously, it rained today. So we have a lot of water vapor. However, we don't find much over the desert. The concentration of water vapor there is low compared to say, Europe. Yet you don't see the mean flow of water vapor moving towards a desert.
Because unlike all the other atmospheric gases, the amount of water vapor air can hold varies with temperature, and thus it can be transported around and then dropped by the various small and large scale movements of the earth's atmosphere, that occur on short timescales of days and weeks. The residency time of water vapor in the atmosphere is very short, the residency time for all the other atmospheric gases is much much longer.
The example you're thinking of only works when you have one gas or maybe a few. The fact is the atmosphere is huge. It takes a lot of something in one place to really move around and get going.
The gas laws don't change because there are more gases in the mix. While the atmosphere is indeed huge, it is also very well mixed. The world over, the composition of the atmosphere is about 76% Nitrogen, 23% Oxygen, 1% Argon and trace amounts of everything else. Those are obviously not exact values, but as approximate figures, they work. The concentration of CO2 is about .002%, moving toward .003%, and that is pretty much the same the world over.
Volcanic ash when spewed into the atmosphere can make its way around the world. But it doesn't go everywhere, and it doesn't go to areas of "low concentration".
A) Volcanic ash is not a gas, it's particulate matter, so it behaves by different rules.

B ) The gases released by volcanoes do spread out over the whole world, moving from areas of high concentration to low concentration.
All of whom face the threat of loosing credibility and funding for attempting to refute global climate change. Even if the facts were that clear, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to have an attitude, like yours, that discourages scientific discussion and investigation in the matter, which IS HAPPENING.
I'm expressing disappointment at your intellectual dishonesty bjorn. You presented an opinion that scientific inquiry into the subject has been tainted by politics. When in fact, the verdict had already been in for years before Gore ever made his stupid movie. You're trying to make the case that everything we know about global warming has been found out since Gore's movie, but even a cursory look at research into global warming shows that the majority of the data is substantially older than 2005. I remember reading about global warming in Discover magazine over 10 years ago. Nearly all the real serious debates about global warming was over and done with in the scientific community by the end of the 1990's, and certainly by 2005. So once again bjorn, BS!
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