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The Beatles
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Post by The Beatles »

Agreed, it's a good logo to use in our rotation. I like Nev's best myself, but it is a good idea to have several logos. I think both should also feature our URL somehow, to drill that into their heads.
(Not only is landgrabbing repetitive, it's counterintuitive and probably not very newbie friendly. I recall a time when I couldn't keep an account more than two or thee days without deleting because I felt like I had been irreparably damaged by landgrabbing.
I still hate it. :) (I wrote this before I saw your post, Devari, but I see you express yourself just as strongly.) That's what I miss most about the old days of the game -- and I've posted about it before -- the lack of the sense of normalcy. It used to be the case that attacks meant something -- granted this phase lasted no longer than a month on either RWL or Warbands -- and it would be nice if that were still the case, if a successful attack in itself meant some sort of achievement, and would provoke a response. Of course, diplomacy stayed a major part of the game for longer than that, as Devari pointed out. On FAF nowadays it seems to be dead. On ME, politics (not really diplomacy as such) were important too though.

To be honest, I've completely forgotten about POLICE. Damn. Can you write a bit more about it to jog my memory?

I remember Warhammer, which was in a clan with Holby (Royal Flying Corps) and Kewima for a while, then obviously ROME, and a one-round We Will Bury You on Warbands again. And more recently, I think you and I were in ROCK, which pwned so badly that the players started whining in under a week and we had to disband under pain of a mass exodus...
Here's just a funny observation: all my most fun Promi games have been on COMPLETELY unbalanced code. FAF 1.0 had that horrific food sell price problem and ridiculous sacking, RWL suffered from Marten Gold Mine brokenness (seriously, I didn't even know what Indy was until I got here, let alone traditional farming or cashing), and Ragnarok was just a mess of crazy numbers.
As Richard Burton said, "I have to think hard to name an interesting man who does not drink."
NoLimits was awfully popular despite being total unmitigated chaos. I think our code now is up to running it without crashing the server too.
Hm... I'm really intrigued by this idea. We'd need to bring back solo war declarations to some extent - otherwise, the unclanned player ends up effectively missing out on a big part of the game. A skirmish system certainly needs to be in place - you can engage in what are effectively "border skirmishes", making, say, up to three attacks. There must be SOME way to get influx of land aside from peaceful means (this IS a wargame), and there's gotta be some basis point for a war to start. I think three is a reasonable number - not enough that you get that total "oh bugger, I'm screwed" feeling when you log in for the day, but enough to get that "how DARE he attack me? It's ON." kinda of vibe.
Does it really have to be a wargame though? I mean life isn't a wargame and it's bloody violent. It could be that wars and attacks are the extra-ordinary means of getting land, and for all that they could be quite frequent. Imagine if we just upped the scouting percentages a lot. I don't like a completely HPR game, but I don't think we'd be in great danger of that. And I would not lose sleep if some proportion of the playerbase based their entire strategy on nonviolent empire and alliance building. I mean, the potential for conflict can be just as potent a player interaction as that conflict itself -- it certainly is in life. And the person at the top might eventually be toppled in any case.

I don't see anything objectionable about morphing the game away completely. I express a preference that this be done so that config switches can make the game appear much like a bog-standard Promi, which has been our policy to date. (We should ship some example configuration files too.) But this is not a dogma.

Anyway, you fellows are all right that we need some actionable things to do, and it's worth going for low-hanging fruit when we have so little development time.

I'll put up a to-do list later on that we can all edit (nothing fancy, just a forum post that we'll use as a wiki -- it's quick that way :)). Someone can sort it, and then the coders or HTML writers among us can start working on items on it.
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Post by windhound »

Devari wrote:Banner Exchange: Yes, that's a great idea - gets our name out there.

Windy: Nice banner. Too bad you didn't show it to us before. :)
...
*cough*
http://frostnflame.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=3701&hl=banner
;)

Nev's banner is fine for the homepage Beatles, but for an advertising banner we need to state what the site is. They're got everything in that link exchange... games from cards to tabletop, pottery, resin figures, game stores, merchandise... everything and anything related to games. A banner that simply says Frost and Flame, even with our address, isnt going to do us much good imho.

...
I may throw in my 2c on the rest in a bit
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Post by Freenhult »

It seems like we're agreeing to the same things. So lets just change one thing. And then modify everything accordingly. Then implement features to that change as we go. Unless we're talking about a one fell swoop change.
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波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
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Ruddertail
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Post by Ruddertail »

I'll address the whole landgrabbing/land thing first off, because everything really depends on that. I envision a significant switch up in the way we do land, and that would lead to changes in land gaining, land taking, and wars, as well as serve as a somewhat different foundation on which to build projects and such.

I would make the change from land as "acres" to land as "provinces." A province would be a number of acres in a unit - you couldn't break it up. They would take a number of turns, in addition to a number of soldiers or special "explorers" (maybe too complicated) and an amount of cash to open up. You would then have to secure them by building a fortification and stationing soldiers in them.

As such, you couldn't really make regular "raids" or anything of that nature. You'd either have to make the effort to capture an entire province - which would result immediately in a significant fight, and longer-term would inevitably start (or require the start of) a war. Thus, land changes hands in clan or individual wars, but not day to day.

This raises two questions: How do keep experienced players from farming newbies? And, How do we do that without making war impractical or imposing ridiculous restrictions? (I.e., you can only declare war within X percentage of your net. In addition to being nonsensical, these allow for all sorts of goony work-arounds.)

The way we do this is make it such that it costs significantly more to take a province then it does to scout one. This solves the first issue, but raises the second question: Why would anybody attack?

Well, you make it so it takes more money to develop a province to a person's relative development level then it takes for them to launch a military expedition. Thus, if the enemy has provinces of relatively the same development level, it would be worthwhile to take them by force (depending, of course, on how difficult the war would be - something that wouldn't be easy to calculate). On the other hand, if the provinces are all significantly less well developed, the costs of the military expedition to take them, let alone the defense the opponent might put up, would not be worth it. You could certainly take a province just to damage someone, which would be done in clan war type situations, but it wouldn't be the most advantageous thing for the attacker.

Another thing I would do would be to create resources. Some provinces would have these, some would not. (All starting provinces would have one.) They would be necessary to a variety for things, from building armies to building projects. They could include critical stuff like iron, wood, stone (building, armies, etc.) and boosters (wheat that can feed soldiers, gold that can be sold to the bank for extra currency.) Since every empire would have only one resource to start out, it would create a robust trading system, with empires trading wood for stone, iron for wood, with stuff like gold and silver coming to serve as mediums of trade. Game currency could also be a means for trade.

This could be used to address the issue of clan projects turning clans into "oldbies clubs." If we make resource appearance in new provinces inversely dependent on time the player has been playing and the number provinces they have, and make it so as things go on and projects and stuff get more and more expensive, clans would then have an incentive to recruit newbies and build them up with aid and advice - the newbies part of the deal would be gaining new sources of resources for the clan, and one newbie who was rocketed up through aid might gain more new resource sources in a month then the whole rest of a large clan.

As a part of this, sources of resources could have a limited amount of resource "units," thus putting even more pressure on people to obtain new sources, as their old sources would run out.



In terms of complexity, I think the key would be to make it so initial play is fairly simple. A little resource trading with other players, some economic fiddling, (balancing tax rates, interest rates, and maybe one other factor in response to changing economic conditions) but mostly just spending turns on various things, like building, recruiting and training troops, and piling up supplies for a simple project or two (fortress upgrades, city upgrades/building another city, a trade hub if they're part of a clan) or the acquisition of another province. (Supplies including cash, resources, turns, and standard food.)

As things got advanced, or as players got more advanced, more projects, more diplomacy, more complicated economic conditions (and I spout off about economic conditions while having no real idea of how that would work, but I know it's been thrown around) more game events and more wars/complex trade agreements/strategic maneuvers to get access to resources/other varied interactions with other players would lend increasing complexity to the game: however, I think, not (at least, outside of clan play - that will ever and always eat your time) anything that will cause it to take more than 15 - 20 minutes to make a run, once you've got a certain strategic project figured out. (For example, you're building up for a war - you come on, make sure you still have access to the resources you need, make troops, let your economy run and tax it, and then sign off.)

To further avoid complexity, presentation could be as simple (for projects) as a page listing "doable" projects (that is, the things they are developed enough for, they don't have other projects that need to be done first) a short description of what the project does, and the costs. Something like the old heroes page. Another page could list all the projects and what they require, thus allowing people to trace out and plan ahead - as much complexity as you want, when you want it, is the key. However deeply they want to delve, it's there. There's more development to be done with all these concepts - both fleshing stuff out and simplifying it - I think there's at least a start in this four page (double spaced) essay I'm writing. On a random note, I wonder if I could write a four page essay for school this quickly... not likely.

To address some specific questions/points.
"How did you envision your particular Clan Tax? Is this something that skims off of every turn? Does it go straight into the Clan Treasury, or is it auto-distributed in a strange form of automatic pseudo-aid?"
I would envision clan tax as a tax on the economic production of the clan - money, basically, and possibly food or resources. The tax would go to the treasury, from whence it could be spent on clan projects or sent as aid.
Hmm... This sounds like NationStates, which leads to the problem of having a regrettably limited number of "circumstances" to respond to. Unless we find a way around this, it can get kinda gimmicky after a while; I know that's why I quit playing NationStates, since telling the exact same environmental group that "yes, I do support you" for the fifteenth time just gets  OLD.
I somewhat addressed this earlier. I would envision tweaking a few things on the economy, (interest rate and tax rate, maybe?) and maybe adjusting stuff in response to seasons/weather conditions. (I.e., shutting down farms in the winter, and directing more effort to be made in factories. That sort of thing might get repetitive, I suppose, but it wouldn't be the whole of the game - merely a little extra tweaking. Also, since it involves changes that affect the rest of your empire, it wouldn't get the feeling of "this is useless" like talking to the same group 15 times over.

I was reading that and thinking, "Sounds nice, but they're just gonna become an exclusive club...", and then you acknowledged that. Not much to say here - I'm mostly in agreement - but we certainly do need to expand on anti-oldbie-"lock" measures. It feels bad to be so cynical about experienced players, but it really is true that mechanics need to prevent abuse - the landgrab-happy game is partly a playerbase issue.
I addressed this somewhat with resources. That certainly gives (1) an advantage to newbies/new accounts, and (2) an incentive for clans to recruit newbies/new accounts.

Does it really have to be a wargame though? I mean life isn't a wargame and it's bloody violent. It could be that wars and attacks are the extra-ordinary means of getting land, and for all that they could be quite frequent. Imagine if we just upped the scouting percentages a lot. I don't like a completely HPR game, but I don't think we'd be in great danger of that. And I would not lose sleep if some proportion of the playerbase based their entire strategy on nonviolent empire and alliance building. I mean, the potential for conflict can be just as potent a player interaction as that conflict itself -- it certainly is in life. And the person at the top might eventually be toppled in any case.
That's exactly the sort of thing I'm thinking of - you spend most of your time on non-violent economics, trading, building, and diplomacy; then go to war over power, to gain land, to gain access to resources that are in short supply, or to important bonus resources, or simply for power and/or prestige (think being able to levy a tax on the rest of the game, or simply controlling the top 5 spots, or clan supported emping.)

Do we have anybody volunteering to redo the main page or right a paragraph or two? Also, yeah, something with the color scheme, definitely. The current one is almost annoying to work with, with all the little humps in the background, and there isn't much that's better.

Also, what about a theme for the game? Any ideas of something that would be a major draw and have fans that would tend to stick around? If not, any ideas for something that might be a little more interesting that history? Not that history is totally uninteresting, but most people would probably prefer something else - fantasy, a cartoon, something.

Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
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Post by The Beatles »

Apropos, our hosts have finally installed cvs. I will put the whole lot under sourceforge's version control next week.
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Post by Freenhult »

Oh. By the by. It just dawned on me. I'll read most of Rudder's post in a bit.

How to control land flow: Maintainable. With a providence system, assume that you expand in a squarish pattern. 1,8, 16, etc. So make each prov cost x gold per turn to maintain. And the further out you go, the more expensive it costs. Preferably logiritmatically. So it gets absurd very fast.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
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Post by The Beatles »

It's not realistic. That just encourages everyone to be about the same size -- it removes value from conquest.

Apropos, yes windy, I just realised the point of what I posted in the thread you linked to back then.
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Post by Freenhult »

No, it makes it so people can't grow to super high levels. Obviously, an empire that makes plenty of gold can afford to expand and conquer new lands. It just curbs rapid and non-nonsensical expansion.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
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Post by Ruddertail »

Wouldn't conquered lands also add to your maintenance costs? Because if so, people would be very reluctant to expand. Look at Civ. You (or at least I) end up dumping as many conquered cities as possible, because they kill you with maintenance. Same thing would happen here. And since there's no domination/conquest victory, people would be even less likely to do it, especially on WoA.

But I already addressed this point, I think. Provinces prevent easy switching of land, costs of military conquest make farming people way below you not worth it.
Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
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Freenhult
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Post by Freenhult »

Not really. In Civ 4, the point is to make it so that global empires can't survive for long. Since realistically the cost to maintain the standard of living would increase the further you're away from the motherland.

You can easily take an entire continent or even half of a pangiea map and work it nicely. I play on Prince/Monarch a lot. This is harder to do, but its easier when you've been doing it for a while.

To address your point Rudder, Yeah. It would drive up the maintenance but depending on how high we set the value per "ring" as I guess... It wouldn't matter. If you can expand up until 5 rings without maintenance killing you then its not a big deal. That would be a huge number of provs. Even if its costly to attack one, people will. How hard is it to net up an army. Someone who's not focusing on army could get rolled by someone with a decent one. There has to be other factors then military losses that control expansion. Financial would be a good way as well.

The point of this new concept is clear.

1. You can't expand recklessly. Meaning no random attacking or scouting for land until your empire can handle it. Otherwise it'll eat your economy.

2. It provides a limiter so people can't have insanely high net worths because they know how to landlock.

3.It brings in diplomacy as perhaps we can make regions/provinces trade-able between empires to an extent.

4. When you conquer an area, you're doing so because you either need the land or it has something you want. (But what could we code in that would make this useful? Perhaps resources? Happiness for people? Increased gold/food production?) So it makes defense and holding more important than just land shifting.

5.Add in a victory condition perhaps? Maybe have it that a "Time" victory is at the end of the month. There can be other ways to win...We just need to figure out how much junk we want to grab from other games. Its totally possible. Why does our game only have to have a time win? Why not a military victory? Or anything of the sort. Stability? Pah. People who are playing are running every run practically or they don't care that much. So they'd know if someone was getting close to winning.

Point is, we need a new game and ideas. This is a new idea. Don't shoot it down without looking at all the angles.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
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Post by Ruddertail »

I'm certainly open to new ideas - I'm proposing some myself. I just don't see yours as a good one.

The problem with what you've spelled out, though, is that everybody tops out at about the same level, and there's no real point to continued expansion. Once I hit that point, what's the point to trying to grow further? If my economy can no longer sustain it, it would be relative suicide. I don't see resources helping much - if they're something that makes further growth possible, it seems they're either plentiful enough that a few people end up getting left behind the crowd, or scarce enough that a few people get ahead of the rest. But in that case, people don't get ahead through skill so much as through securing resources.

I don't really think we want limiters on growth. We want empires to be able to dominate. There certainly should be a way for other empires to work together and take them down - we don't want somebody getting so far out ahead that nobody can touch them - but the idea that everybody will pretty much be on the same level isn't something that we want to achieve, and that's what I see your plan doing.
Even if its costly to attack one, people will. How hard is it to net up an army. Someone who's not focusing on army could get rolled by someone with a decent one. There has to be other factors then military losses that control expansion. Financial would be a good way as well.
As usual, we seem to be on a completely different page. Probably my fault, as I didn't completely flesh out ideas.

I'm envisioning a completely different system. You don't take a province with a two turn attack and a decent army, or even a two turn attack and a big army. For large, well developed provinces with a fortified city, a fortress, and maybe a town or two (the kind you'd see after a few months of play on WOA, and towards the end of a BFR set, if we give BFR a much faster turn rate then WOA), you're looking at 1, 2, maybe 3,000 turns and billions of dollars, big quantities of food, wood and iron for siege implements, and that's just for taking the province. Prior to that, there's the build up time for those resources, constructing the attacking army,(possibly including equipping and training) and such. All of which takes turns and resources that could otherwise be spent growing your empire, improving your economy, improving your provinces and cities, etc.
Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
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Post by Freenhult »

I gathered that. But even so. Thats small compared to the relative timescale of WoA. Plus, Its not a limit on size. Since there isn't a landmass restriction it wouldn't be impossible for infinite expansion. As long as you managed your territories correctly then you wouldn't be hurt.

Then you wouldn't be on the same playing field in size. No matter how you work it, someone will always figure out a way to get on top and such.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
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Post by Ruddertail »

Hmm. Yes, I missed something. Some how, the cost of an expedition would have to be set up so that it costs more to acquire a primitive province through conquest then it does to acquire one through building it up. The goal would be that below, say, 75% of your development level, it isn't worth it to try to take the person's provinces. You could build a province to the same development level for a lower cost.

That's what I'm going for. I'm not sure exactly what the base the calculations on, but that's the overall idea. It makes conquest practicable, but only on a level where the target is at least nearly as large as the attacker. And there's nothing to say two or three small empires couldn't team up against a larger empire and hammer it for land. The sole point is to keep large people from farming little people.

As far as whether there's a limitation, no, there isn't. I don't see the point of a limitation. Why do we want a limitation on land gain? With this sort of system, there wouldn't be a way to do a traditional "land lock." Taking even one province would take days, and then there's the rebuilding time. If one player started gaining too much power, alliances would likely be formed to bring him down - and there's be plenty of time to do it. Sheer weight of turns would give the multi - player alliance an advantage over the single player.

Also, say we did limit growth in land. Are we looking at a game where it's all about what you can produce, resource wise, with a set amount of land? Because everybody's eventually going to run up against the limit. Also, don't limits to land present a disincentive to war? When an empire takes something over, they want to gain a benefit. With Civ, sure, you only take what you can afford, but you can progressively afford more and more as your economic grows. There is a limit, but it's the total number of cities you can take - there are only so many you can fit on a map. We have a limitless number of provinces, theoretically - a limitless amount of land, however you end up doing land. Thus, if you go with the civ model, you have no limit at all. If you increase costs to the point where you cannot afford more provinces no matter the strength of your economy - or where you're looking at growth that is just utterly absurd - then everybody reaches that point and has no reason to grow further, peacefully or through war. Thus, everybody just sits there and tries to squeeze more and more out of the land they have, with wars only occuring for the purpose of knocking another clan down, with no possible benefit to the attacking clan, and the very real risk that they may take as much damage as they inflict - in terms of destroying net, not taking provinces, because taking provinces would tank their economies - without any real gain.

You could do something with critical resources, but if those were within provinces, there would have to be a way to dump provinces in order to pick up new ones, since, again, you risk tanking your economy.

All in all, I just don't see a reason to limit growth, or how it's practical. Maybe with a more comprehensive system, but you'd need to develop the rest of the system to make it make sense.

Edit: Come on - don't tell me the rest of you are just going to let this turn into another Freen/Rudder debate. Somebody else has to be [s]dumb enough to[/s] willing to skip some schoolwork to deal with this unbelievably important subject...
Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
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Post by Freenhult »

I see your point, however without some sort of curb, and with attacking taking days... On WoA if you played for a year or so like we used too, you'd be able to build a huge empire that would be very stable. WoA isn't practical in the sense that it runs forever. If we ran it on say a seasonal time scale, that would be very interesting. But I don't see why a limit on rapid growth or really, a ceiling isn't necessary. Otherwise, The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

The only thing I can see is that perhaps when you attack, you have the option to do two things. Keep the prov, or burn it and make it unusable. Thus dropping it. Granted once you get to the top and if you are the first one, then you can burn your competitions. But whats to say they can't team up on you and get yours?

The point should be... We -don't- let people reach the limit. Not by setting code to stop them. But from making the diplomacy and dynamics of how the game works. This way, we have self imposed limiters by the playerbase.

THAT is much better than say, what I suggested with maintenance. But still, that should be an important part of it too.

Cutting rapid expansion and also early wars for no reason. Along with setting the game up for player imposed restrictions based on play style.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
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Post by Shadow I »

Not that I am opposed to the ideas here, but wasn't it just a while ago that someone commented that nobody has time to do this? This would require almost a complete rewrite of just about every aspect of the game, which is a lot more time-intensive than anything else proposed in the past and shot down for lack of coders to implement it.
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