Echoes

You can talk about anything here, not necessarily game-related. You may also advertise here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Devari
Mr. -1
Posts: 3194
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:02 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Devari »

It's not a rewrite, it's a re-imagining. ;) Seriously, though, it just involves changing parts of the code, not so much rewriting from scratch. A lot of the stuff that we (coughBEATLEScough) spent a lot of time coding is still relevant, including all the security and stability improvements.

Sorry Rudds, I don't have the chance to go through your posts at the moment. Brain is fried after writing about Anselm of Bec all day. :P
If you go down to the woods today, you better not go alone
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
User avatar
Ruddertail
Promi Diplomacy ate my homework...
Posts: 4510
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 11:39 pm
Location: Chances are, playing FAF.
Contact:

Post by Ruddertail »

Not a problem, Dev. I know how that can be. Take your time.

Shadow: Even if there isn't time for it now, it's better to come up with ideas and figure out what we want to implement, rather than just doing nothing. If we can devise a working system, Beatles and Devari can start working on coding when they have the time. Until that time, any spare time they might have is useless (from an FAF standpoint. I'm sure they enjoy it far more, not having to code. Sorry guys. No more spring break for you.)

Freen:

I'm still not seeing how a curb would be necessary. Sure, you could build a huge empire, assuming you could keep opening up enough resources to maintain growth. But, so what? Isn't that the goal?

Now, some form of upkeep wouldn't be unrealistic, and might be good - it prevents people from spreading themselves two thin, and requires them to keep a strong cash economy in addition to just pumping out resources and spending their little cash on troops.

I certainly don't see how the "rich get richer and the poor get poor," either under what we have now or under what I'm proposing. I don't think the longer attack times would skew it in that direction at all - if anything, it would skew it the other way. Longer attack times would give the advantage to a group of smaller attackers against a larger defender - he has a hard time producing turns fast enough to fight back. He needs to be already strong enough in province defenses that he can shrug off their attacks, and weaken/damage them with strategic attacks on provinces or engagements of their main armies.

I do agree, we should try to make game situations the limiter. That's what I'm going for with the idea of it costing more to build a province to a person's development level then to steal one at that level. Thus, people are encouraged to take other people's provinces (if those people are at the same or a higher development level,) and especially if those people have important resources. This sort of circumstance would tend to prevent anyone from getting two big without a clan to back them up, and a large player in a strong clan would be perceived as a threat by the rest of the playerbase, who would unite against them.
Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

Hey, hey, guys, you didn't give us *time*. :)

I think that if we try to algorithmically cap or even just set a function for how high people can get, they'll find the sweet spot and everyone will gravitate towards that. There's infinite land, after all, so people don't encroach on each other.

I don't mind the idea of finite land, actually. New players would get unallocated land, or if that was up, someone else's land. Think of Civ, where barbarians might suddenly appear on your land. It could be the same way -- quite random.

I think we might make it work, and it would be an enormous, radical change of the game dynamics, for a laughably cheap cost of implementation...

Anselm of Bec, eh? I can just imagine the mediaeval Britons grumbling: "'Ey, 'oo's this Eyetie-like flanging about as Archbishop? Thinks 'imself God 'e does. I'll be ------ at the cheek of this 'ere bloody Johnny Foreigner."
Or possibly not, I mean, times change.
:wq
User avatar
Freenhult
13th Division Captain
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:30 am
Location: Valparaiso
Contact:

Post by Freenhult »

Depending on what we're doing and how we plan it? This could be someones coding final project. :P

We all have a bit of time together. So its possible.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
User avatar
Freenhult
13th Division Captain
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:30 am
Location: Valparaiso
Contact:

Post by Freenhult »

Right. Something of the sort Beatles. That could be interesting.

Rudder:
I'm still not seeing how a curb would be necessary. Sure, you could build a huge empire, assuming you could keep opening up enough resources to maintain growth. But, so what? Isn't that the goal?
Think about current games. If there was a landfarm...what would happen. As the land amount increased it would gravitate towards one person? Why? Because there are no restrictions.

You say your attacks will make it so you will expand less? I say Pah. Reason: There will always be a bigger fish. Someone has to be on top, and people have to be lower. Thats duh. So the bigger person attacks the people around him and wins. The people below can't beat him because he gets more land. More resources, more funds. Everything. So litterally, mathmatically we do have infinite land. And as calculus would have us show, the limit as land goes to infinity of [f(x) being networth] it would trend to infinity as well.

That being said, on WoA after 6 months. People keep growing and STILL keep growing Yes? The guy from 1st hits the guy in 2nd. 2nd hits 3rd. 3rd hits 4th and so on down. And the land just flows upwards. That is not a good system.

Now, throw a curb in there. Its too expensive to expand past a point. What happens? People fight. People make deals. Guy in first, protect me! He's scary. People don't like him, they can burn his land and make him fight. He probably has deals with smaller empires. Maybe vassals at this point? Wow, we could introduce a hierarchy structure. Wouldn't that be neat? :D

And even better. Finite land. Set a sign up limit. You can have a TON of land out there avaiable that we'd prolly never hit the finite limit. Plus we can adjust it so that we get close and if we keep hitting it, we move it up a bit.

A dynamic lid so to speak. I'd be in favor of what about barbs in the wild lands you scout? Maybe not right off the bat but say a good week in the game. Suddenly expansion that is scouting means barbs live on those lands. They raise an army and you have to fight them? Interesting dynamic as well. That curbs expansion and is way more realistic.

My idea brings a sound curb to as I KEEP SAYING. RAPID AND NON-SENSICAL expansion. An empire that can afford to fight a war for a plot of land won't worry about it. But someone just wanted to take a resource just to have it will have multiple things to worry about. You -should- be able to tank your economy by overexpanding.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
User avatar
Freenhult
13th Division Captain
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:30 am
Location: Valparaiso
Contact:

Post by Freenhult »

http://www.travian.com/

Our code + our Ideas = Something like this. Wow. We need to hit a realm where people are. You google Promisance and we don't even show up. Infact, no games do that have people.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

Also, read this:
http://lostgarden.com/2008/10/princess-rescuing-application-slides.html

It came up at our meeting at work today. It really (painfully) brings home what's lacking in us, and in Promisance generally.

Actually, that Travian game looks brilliant. I'll check it out; who knows, it might be low-maintenance.

Does anyone want to set up a FAF clan there?
:wq
User avatar
Devari
Mr. -1
Posts: 3194
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:02 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Devari »

I played around with Travian a few years back, mostly because it's based on some of the best comics ever - Asterix and Obelix. It's good fun, but you do certainly want to play it every day in order to not "waste" turns. One of the problems I encountered was being completely unable to defend myself...
If you go down to the woods today, you better not go alone
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
User avatar
Devari
Mr. -1
Posts: 3194
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:02 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Post by Devari »

We certainly can learn from its example, however, especially if we can get the same level of ascetic appeal. Except for a very select "retro" crowd, it seems that clean graphics certainly do attract a crowd; besides, a picture's worth a thousands words, and a well-designed graphical interface can be far more intuitive than a bunch of text.

Hmm... A bunch of unintuitive text make me think that we should create a side project: "UNIX Text Editors: The Game".
If you go down to the woods today, you better not go alone
It's a lovely day in the woods today, but safer to stay at home
BECAUSE EVIL FREEN IS KILLING ALL THE TEDDY BEARS AT THEIR PICNIC
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

:P We'd be ideally suited for it.

Travian also has intro levels, btw, which teach you the skills you need with in-game rewards. Cue the article I linked to.

Also, maybe we should ditch the white-on-black thing. It only now occurs to me that in a web site, I don't really like it. I love it in a text editor or just about anything else, though.
:wq
User avatar
Freenhult
13th Division Captain
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:30 am
Location: Valparaiso
Contact:

Post by Freenhult »

o_o I didn't mean we should make our game like it. I was just showing a succesful game that has ideas that we're thinking about. If we can figure out what makes the game work so well and itegrate that into our game with features and such accordingly we should be good.

We'll need some huge changes though, but depending on how big, we already have a solid base to work off of.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
User avatar
Ruddertail
Promi Diplomacy ate my homework...
Posts: 4510
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 11:39 pm
Location: Chances are, playing FAF.
Contact:

Post by Ruddertail »

You say your attacks will make it so you will expand less? I say Pah. Reason: There will always be a bigger fish. Someone has to be on top, and people have to be lower. Thats duh. So the bigger person attacks the people around him and wins. The people below can't beat him because he gets more land. More resources, more funds. Everything. So literally, mathematically we do have infinite land. And as calculus would have us show, the limit as land goes to infinity of [f(x) being networth] it would trend to infinity as well.
The point is, it's hard for anyone to get up ahead. It takes weeks to add just a few provinces. Maybe a month before the difference from those provinces start to show a real affect. In that time, there's plenty of opportunity for the lower ranked people to get a group together and hammer the top guy. It's not possible to land lock in a day. Think of it like a situation where every gets 50k a run and now somebody starts getting 60k a run. It's going to take a while before that starts making a serious difference, and even if 60k to everybody elses's 50k makes a difference, two people with 50k could probably win a fight with him. Certainly within a few weeks of him making that jump.

I would certainly agree that we have infinite land. I wouldn't be opposed to finite land of some sort, but I don't see infinite land as inherently bad. I certainly don't see why it would be.
Now, throw a curb in there. Its too expensive to expand past a point. What happens? People fight.
What are they fighting for? Land so they can hit the maximum first? To what end? Land that they can't afford? Why in their right minds? Some other quantity - resources or something? That may be good, but you haven't proposed it. I've also not heard a system where the risk of fighting over resources is worth the risk of inciting a war, at least not something here.

I've yet to see how a curb on empire size wouldn't just lead everybody to HPR build to that limit, then HPR beyond it. Either the curb is just something that slows but does not stop empire growth, which doesn't provide any incentive one way or the other for war, and leaves us with infinite land (which I have no problem with) or something that chokes growth up hard at a certain point (i.e, 45 - 50 provinces, dependent on economy strength, and leaves people with no incentive for conquest beyond that point.

The problem I see with finite land is how to make it not favor established empires over newbies. Games that use finite land usually presuppose simultaneous starts. You could argue from games like Travian, I suppose, but Travian has near infinite, if not actually infinite land - I doubt you'd ever see a situation where individuals or clans go to war because there isn't room for peaceful expansion.

You could, I suppose, split provinces off larger empires to create new empires, but you still need a way to supply people with provinces: otherwise, you (could) end up with all the empires stripped down to "new empire" size and no way to add players.

You could add a certain amount of land for each player, but that land would have to be only available to that player: otherwise, it would be very much biased towards oldbies.

Ditto with making provinces come available from time to time for settlement - and especially so if those provinces were defended. Oldbies really have the advantage there.

I honestly think "infinite land" is the best way to go. Nothing to say we can't have increasing expenses, but something that presents a de-facto cap on what people can reach is a bad idea, from what I can see. Ditto for anything that would have the affect of A) Favoring oldbies in the acquisition of new provinces, and B) encouraging attacks on newbies/weaker empires then oneself.
Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
User avatar
Freenhult
13th Division Captain
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:30 am
Location: Valparaiso
Contact:

Post by Freenhult »

Ruddertail wrote: The point is, it's hard for anyone to get up ahead. It takes weeks to add just a few provinces. Maybe a month before the difference from those provinces start to show a real affect. In that time, there's plenty of opportunity for the lower ranked people to get a group together and hammer the top guy. It's not possible to land lock in a day.
Thats not possible. Someone always will get ahead. You can't hold everyone even, thats just boring. There has to be a king and someone to rule over. No one wants overly equality. That in a sense -is- HPR to me.

And if we introduce resource bonus plots? Sure, then it gives an incent. The point is that while we have a limit, people don't get to it. The limit is there to 1. Codify and quantify a pre-supposed limit. So having an actual expansive limit is a moot point in my mind. Its encouraging people to quit passing land actually fight and hold it. So that will create strong armies on smaller lands, since you can't really focus on a war and peace economy. War being able to support large armies. Peace being expansionist perhaps. Trader/Market economy stuff. Going to war might mean economic reasons if you hit a top so to speak. Instead of just netting they're fighting and still have to take risks.

And even in months, 2 months. If WoA goes for a year, thats nothing. That may make the land too stingy. We don't want land passing to the extent we have now, but we do need a flow. Either from the outside or inside. Granted, a constrained flow, but one nevertheless.
Think of it like a situation where every gets 50k a run and now somebody starts getting 60k a run. It's going to take a while before that starts making a serious difference, and even if 60k to everybody elses's 50k makes a difference, two people with 50k could probably win a fight with him. Certainly within a few weeks of him making that jump.

I would certainly agree that we have infinite land. I wouldn't be opposed to finite land of some sort, but I don't see infinite land as inherently bad. I certainly don't see why it would be.
>_> Either way. Thats gonna hurt especially in the beginning. When you're looking at well established near capped environments, there isn't a difference. My point being, even if you come in late, Yeah you're behind. But you arent' gonna get railroaded and resourced farmed by people just above you.

Land on one had, well. Finite vs infinite is sorta a blah thing. In terms of time. I'd want finite land on a smaller time scale and more/possibly infinite on a longterm server. Or simply just set the limit high enough that no one ever really hits it. The reason I don't like infinities is because given time and effort, a couple of people could abuse the smeg out of scouting infinite land on WoA to really make a large empire with a land feeder for a top account.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
User avatar
Freenhult
13th Division Captain
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:30 am
Location: Valparaiso
Contact:

Post by Freenhult »

What are they fighting for? Land so they can hit the maximum first? To what end? Land that they can't afford? Why in their right minds? Some other quantity - resources or something? That may be good, but you haven't proposed it. I've also not heard a system where the risk of fighting over resources is worth the risk of inciting a war, at least not something here.

I've yet to see how a curb on empire size wouldn't just lead everybody to HPR build to that limit, then HPR beyond it. Either the curb is just something that slows but does not stop empire growth, which doesn't provide any incentive one way or the other for war, and leaves us with infinite land (which I have no problem with) or something that chokes growth up hard at a certain point (i.e, 45 - 50 provinces, dependent on economy strength, and leaves people with no incentive for conquest beyond that point.
As I said, economic reasons. Diplomacy, whatever. They shouldn't be hitting our codified limit.

"Either the curb is just something that slows but does not stop empire growth, which doesn't provide any incentive one way or the other for war, and leaves us with infinite land (which I have no problem with) or something that chokes growth up hard at a certain point (i.e, 45 - 50 provinces, dependent on economy strength, and leaves people with no incentive for conquest beyond that point."

Yep. If you're netting to our codified limit, You're obviously going to be one hell of a military power. Congrats, you just won the set. Its a type of win I guess. Thats all we do now. Hit a land max and sit on a huge net. This is boring, and this curb, being high up and also, making it harder to hit, gives us grounds to build a victory condition list.
The problem I see with finite land is how to make it not favor established empires over newbies. Games that use finite land usually presuppose simultaneous starts. You could argue from games like Travian, I suppose, but Travian has near infinite, if not actually infinite land - I doubt you'd ever see a situation where individuals or clans go to war because there isn't room for peaceful expansion.

You could, I suppose, split provinces off larger empires to create new empires, but you still need a way to supply people with provinces: otherwise, you (could) end up with all the empires stripped down to "new empire" size and no way to add players.

You could add a certain amount of land for each player, but that land would have to be only available to that player: otherwise, it would be very much biased towards oldbies.
In terms of WoA, near limitless land. In BFR, why not? People usually sign up and play within the first couple weeks. Otherwise you're behind. People who sign up when the land is filled randomly put in an empire. Anyone really, with bias towards the people on the top. The part that makes that fine is where we add in a vassal system. So the newbie account is protect by the person he took land from, and also gives his lord goods for his land. Now if the vassal can accumulate enough net/population and land then he can break free. Civ much? Works and makes sense. In order to make it realisitic, when the vassal declares independance, he must fight a war for it or we could make it so the lord just gives him the freedom for a high price. Lots of gold and resources. Otherwise the vassal is powerless and much remain under his masters control.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
ohmyjapan16
Sir Devari's Squire
Posts: 941
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:15 am

Post by ohmyjapan16 »

After reading a few of these posts here are some thoughts I liked or think would work...

-When first starting, it should completely worthless to war with other emps.

-Gaining land by scouting should be costly (for developmental purposes, etc.), but a much cheaper alternative to war. Also, as the amount of land scouted by your emp goes up, the amount of land/profitability from scouting should decrease.

-The more territory you gain, the more your resources you must use to keep that territory in your possesion, and some time after you gain it, you should start to make a profit, not right away.

-Perhaps a loyalty system with respect to the provinces would be interesting. Say the provinces you start out with are 100% loyal to you so you can maximize your profit from those provinces. But if you conquer a territory, the loyalty level of that province will be lower and you can maximizes that provinces production. The loyalty of land scouted would initially be 100%.

-There should be no limits to the wealth an empire can accumulate, but an empire should never be untouchable. A huge emp should be able to crumble both by warfare and economical situations. Exactly how, I have no idea.

K THATS ALL IM TYPIN RIGHT NOW I DONT KNOW IF ANY OF THESE IDEAS HELPED BUT I TRIED :lol: ;) :o :o :D :P :rolleyes: :) B) B) :unsure:
It ain't about how hard ya hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!
Post Reply
  • Members connected in real time

    🔒 Close the panel of connected members