Milestones in Civic Progress

[The Beatles]

Volkov, please give me a clearly defined list of what you consider to be attributes of a free state/democracy. Thanks.

[Gen. Volkov]

Didn't I already do this in the shoutbox?

[The Beatles]

You included not having a monarchy. But never mind, just give me that list again if it's your final answer.

[Gen. Volkov]

Liberal democracy:

1. Has a constitution.
2. Has civil liberties protections.
3. Has no hereditary monarch.
4. Has rule of law.
5. Has leaders accountable to laws.

[The Beatles]

All right. In the good old prove or give counterexample tradition, I will list the first 3 countries to develop/adopt each of the above. If more than 3 nations acknowledged as democracies by Freedom House don't fit a particular criterion, I will ignore it.

1. Counterexamples: United Kingdom, New Zealand, Israel.
2. Valid. First 3 countries:
I. England and Wales (Charter of Liberties 1100, Magna Charta 1215, Bill of Rights 1689), later by extension Scotland
II. France (The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen 1789 -- later repealed for some time, so not really stable)
III. United States of America (Bill of Rights 1791)
3. Counterexamples: United Kingdom, Norway, Spain.
4. Valid:
I. England (Charter of Liberties 1100, Magna Charta 1215)
II, III. I am unable to find material on when other nations adopted rule of law.

5. This is merely a sub-point of Point 4, for a discussion see:
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/cooray/btof/chap180.htm

6. You omitted universal suffrage which I consider a basic component of a democracy. The first 3 countries to adopt it were:
I. Finland (1906)
II. Norway (1913)
III. Estonia, Ireland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary (1918)
Otherwise you could count ancient Greece or any dictatorship.

[Gen. Volkov]

Which again proves my point, the definition of democracy is variable, based on who is giving it.

I was gonna add universal suffrage, but then I thought, what about the age limit on voting? And what about if the majority can vote, just not everyone? The reason for 5 was I wasn't positive Rule of Law included that.

[The Beatles]

Well, of course it's variable, we agree on that. But then there's no point in saying the US was the first democracy.

We do however have an international body that lists democratic countries, Freedom House. (I have the personal nitpick with them that they don't define democracy, but they do define democratic nation, so go figure.)

[Gen. Volkov]

Well given the variable nature of the definition of democracy, the US can be said to be the first modern democratic nation-state. Also, it is generally agreed upon that while Britain made several large steps toward democracy, the US was the first democracy in modern times. Now obviously we didn't have all the things that are thought of nowadays as constituting a democracy, but we did have most of them, and you had to go quite far back before you found another democracy like the one we set up. Also, our Bill of Rights was RATIFIED in 1791, but passed by Congress in 1789.


Anyway, we mostly agree, so there's not much point in further argument.

[Devari]

If I may interject, I think this is another case where you must agree to disagree on the particular point of the "first democracy".

Oh, another democracy with a "monarchy" is Canada.... Although our monarch doesn't do a thing and hardly visits the country.

[Gen. Volkov]

Actually in the 1980's, you were formally made independent of the British Crown, but I think you decided to keep it as your official head of state anyway.

And yes, i think this is another agree to disagree case.

[The Beatles]

Yep, agree to disagree -- although why did you choose to continue the debate in your last post?

Sure, drafted in 1789. Makes it a round 100 years after the English Bill of Rights.

[Devari]

I know Canadian history. But, we ARE a Constitutional Monarchy. We just have a Governor General (appointed by the PM of the time) who acts as our "monarch". And, of course, our official head of state is Queen Lizzie.

So, essentially, our head of state is the Queen, our acting head of state is the Governor General, and the person with the actual power is the Prime Minister.

[The Beatles]

By the way, we are even disagreeing as to what to agree to disagree on. I am arguing it's either England or Great Britain or Finland, he's arguing it's either the United States, Great Britain or France.

This is getting silly.

[Gen. Volkov]

France doesn't even come into the picture.They were way behind the other two in finally getting a democracy up and running. Over 20 years behind the US or Great Britain. And they weren't even all that stable until the late 1800's. They had a bunch of revolutions.

So I guess I'm saying either the US, Great Britain, or Finland.

And yes, it is getting silly.

Yep, agree to disagree -- although why did you choose to continue the debate in your last post?

More of an offhand comment.

Sure, drafted in 1789. Makes it a round 100 years after the English Bill of Rights.

Passed in 1789, prolly drafted before that. But yes, it's about 100 years after. Because 100 years after happens to be when we split from them. Anyway, that too was just an offhand comment.