Round 25 Results

Discuss this fast-paced and challenging game here.
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Kraken
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Post by Kraken »

The Beatles wrote: And don't forget the US is in the media spotlight much more than Hungary is.
meh, that reason is simple: the world isnt interested in the annual sheep lover contest , no wonder you came to this country to get your education!

anycase, if two people were walking around and lets say one is 5000 feet tall and the other is about 4 feet tall, which one would get noticed the most eh?

hmmmm.......

go on...think about it...

now! should that 5000 pound person take a dump and 4 foot person take a dump, which pile would be bigger?

hmmmm.........

yes! your right........!

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all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

..."I'm sorry, but I really can't see anything redeeming in your philosophy other than that dinosaurs are cute."
~Beatles

The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
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Post by The Beatles »

Ob-bleeding-viously. Do yourself a favor and read what the discussion is about. I simply said people notice the US more, so will tend to notice the difference between New Orleans and New York more. That doesn't mean it isn't homogeneous.
:wq
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Kraken
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Post by Kraken »

your hopeless Beatles. just hopeless.

but! you do have a point! maybe i should read......hmmm...........
all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

..."I'm sorry, but I really can't see anything redeeming in your philosophy other than that dinosaurs are cute."
~Beatles

The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
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Gen. Volkov
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Post by Gen. Volkov »

But that also doesn't mean that it IS. The outside world's perception has absolutely no bearing, yay or nay, on how homogenous the US is. End of story. The US is not homogenous, yet.
2) Only with Congress' consent
Which he gets, usually, so that's still constitutional, don't nitpick.
4) He can introduce but Congress is under no obligation to even consider it.

5) He can sign them only. The signing statements that have been added to damn near every bill Bush has signed (not that nobody else before him has dont it, just on a smaller scale) are unconstitutional.
Once again, you nitpicking, you said name currently used constitutional presidential powers, I did. What else he does that is unconstitutional is immaterial. Besides, the Constitution is not holy writ, the Supreme Court was made specifically to interpret the constitution, and there are the amendments, anyways, your argument is about 200 years too late, the days of the strict constructionists are long over. And the biggest offender against the constitution has to be Roosevelt anyway, he did more to increase the presidents power than any other. But you probably already knew that.

1) Congress can write and pass laws on very, very few things. Off the top of my head I'd say less than 10% of all laws Congress has passed in the last 20 years were Constitutionally allowed.
Nevertheless, they are allowed to pass them. Powers are easier than laws, it's hard to say whether some laws are constitutional or not, because the Constitution is very unspecific on laws, it prohibits some yes, but mostly it just says congress can pass them, it doesn't proscribe exactly what sort of laws can be passed.
4) Incorrect. Congress has made a privately owned central bank (Federal Reserve) but it's not Constitutional. As an aside, anyone who says Bill Gates is the richest man in the world needs to study the Federal Reserve a lot more closely. As a point of reference they could lose every penny they had and in a matter of months they could completely buy out Bill Gates.
They have the power to print money, the bank is debatable, not speciifically prohibited, and is a logical step. The power to print money IS specifically outlined in the constitution. The Federal reserve is not owned by one person, so Gates is the richest MAN in the world. The US government is the richest GOVERNMENT in the world.
5) I had thought that Congress could create bureaus to enforce the laws it has enacted, but the only thing I see in the Congressional section of the Constitution providing for bureaus is one provision allowing for the USPS.
Well if one is allowed, and others not specifically prohibited, how are they unconstitutional? As I said the time of the strict constructionist is long over.
As we discussed before the Civil War like every conflict had a number of causes, but states rights was by far and away the most dominant one. I'm not sure how exactly loss of states rights was a price we paid for a unified country. A more accurate statement would be to say that 2 seperate countries was nearly the price we had to pay for losing state's rights, not the other way around.
States rights, specifically the right to decide whether to be a slave state or free state, and the right to secede were probably the dominant factors, but there were certianly others that came close, such as the whole issue of the North, in taking away slaves, was trying to destroy the South's economy. But I am right when I say we the loss of state's rights was the price the country paid to stay unified. The states lost the right to determine several things, such as free or slave state status, and they lost their right to secede.
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Post by Nuclear Raunch »

Nevertheless, they are allowed to pass them. Powers are easier than laws, it's hard to say whether some laws are constitutional or not, because the Constitution is very unspecific on laws, it prohibits some yes, but mostly it just says congress can pass them, it doesn't proscribe exactly what sort of laws can be passed.
There's a list of about 20 or so areas in which Congress CAN pass laws. Anything not listed is unconstitutional. As I've said, most laws passed are unconstitutional and it's rare that you can find anyone who can think of 3 legal laws off the top of their head.

They have the power to print money, the bank is debatable, not speciifically prohibited, and is a logical step. The power to print money IS specifically outlined in the constitution. The Federal reserve is not owned by one person, so Gates is the richest MAN in the world. The US government is the richest GOVERNMENT in the world.
First of all we don't know how many people own the Federal Reserve, secondly it would have to be spread between a TON of people before the money is diluted enough for Gates to take the top spot. We also don't know the Federal Reserve's networth, but it is assuredly in the trillions.
Well if one is allowed, and others not specifically prohibited, how are they unconstitutional? As I said the time of the strict constructionist is long over.
Congress does not have the authority to do anything not prohibited, they only have the authority to do anything expressly authorized. The states however DO have the authority to do anything not prohibited, not including those rights which are given to another branch of course.
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Gen. Volkov
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Post by Gen. Volkov »

There's a list of about 20 or so areas in which Congress CAN pass laws. Anything not listed is unconstitutional. As I've said, most laws passed are unconstitutional and it's rare that you can find anyone who can think of 3 legal laws off the top of their head.
1. Don't kill each other. (Murder is illegal, I'm sure law is constitutional)

2. Don't rob each other (Stealing is illegal, same as murder law)

3. Don't Maim each other (Assault and battery is illegal, same as robbery and murder)

There, three.

You are using the 10th amendment for this argument I'm guessing? "All rights not given to the US are given to the states etc?" Well, except for those things given back to the govt. by the states. If the states allow it, it's not unconstitutional. So even if it's not expressly listed, the fact that the states are allowing MAKE it constitutional, according to the 10th amendment.
First of all we don't know how many people own the Federal Reserve, secondly it would have to be spread between a TON of people before the money is diluted enough for Gates to take the top spot. We also don't know the Federal Reserve's networth, but it is assuredly in the trillions.
The Federal reserve is state owned, that means, technically, the enitre population of the US owns it. Is 300 million enough for it to be diluted sufficiently? Even assuming that the federal reserve has as much money as the US nat. debt, that's still only 26.6k per person. Gates is the richest man in America.

Congress does not have the authority to do anything not prohibited, they only have the authority to do anything expressly authorized. The states however DO have the authority to do anything not prohibited, not including those rights which are given to another branch of course.
*Nod* But as I said, the govt. has the stuff authorized by the constitution, and the stuff given it by the states. That's why there was ever the debate between the strict constructionist Anti-Federalists, and the expansive, interpretive Federalists. If not for that small part of the 10th amendment, you would be correct, as it is, it's debatable, and the debate has been won by the interpretive side, over 200 years ago.
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Post by The Beatles »

I didn't really read this, but from what I understand the Federal Reserve isn't really like a piggy bank, is it? I mean people can't just take out money at will an' all.
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Nuclear Raunch
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Post by Nuclear Raunch »

All 3 laws you listed are not Constitutional. Those are all areas that the individual states are responsible for. Further evidence that the federal government was supposed to be pretty small.

To my knowledge the state's have never given up their power over anything. Logically speaking it seems like it would be out of character for them to even consider it.

The Federal Reserve always tried to appear to be a government entity, but it is not state owned. However some would argue that it owns the state ;)
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Gen. Volkov
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Post by Gen. Volkov »

All 3 laws you listed are not Constitutional. Those are all areas that the individual states are responsible for. Further evidence that the federal government was supposed to be pretty small.
The individual states defer to national law, therefore it is perfectly constitutional, according to the 10th amendment.
To my knowledge the state's have never given up their power over anything. Logically speaking it seems like it would be out of character for them to even consider it.
Most national laws, according to you, are not in the constitution, therefore the states gave up the power over them, otherwise the Supreme Court would have declared them the unconstitutional.
The Federal Reserve always tried to appear to be a government entity, but it is not state owned. However some would argue that it owns the state
How is it not state-owned?
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Post by Nuclear Raunch »

Beatles: The Federal Reserve was given the power to create America's money. If someone wants to borrow say $100 bil from them they just tell the borrower, "OK, we just gave you $100 bil," even though they just created that money out of thin air. At the time of the loans maturity the borrower gives the Fed $100 bil plus interest. When the US Govt needs money they borrow it from the Fed (I think the US is 2-3 tril in the hole with the Fed, the rest of the debt is held by others) and pay them interest on what is owed.

The only limits to how much money it can produce is inflation. If they just created a quintillion dollars tommorrow then the dollar would become worthless, so it's not in their best interests to do so.

Volkov: If the states formally gave up their rights to any particular authority then you might have a point. Of course the individual states defer to national law, look what happened last time they didn't. He who has the guns makes the rules, no?

By that logic if the state prohibited you from going to church and you stopped going to church then the state was Constitutional because you gave up your right to freedom of religion.

Simple, the Federal Reserve is a private corporation and it has been since it's inception. It has never been owned by the US Govt. It tries to look like a govt institution for obvious reasons but it's not.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world - no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

-Woodrow Wilson, 6 years after he signed the Federal Reserve into law

(For his part in bringing the Fed into being Wilson was honored by being the face of the largest denomination ever, the $100k bill.)
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Gen. Volkov
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Post by Gen. Volkov »

Volkov: If the states formally gave up their rights to any particular authority then you might have a point. Of course the individual states defer to national law, look what happened last time they didn't. He who has the guns makes the rules, no?

By that logic if the state prohibited you from going to church and you stopped going to church then the state was Constitutional because you gave up your right to freedom of religion.
Well yes, it's the citizens duty and responsibility to ensure their rights, when they are trying to be taken away.

Not that it's the same at all though, the freedom of religion is specifically outlined in the Bill of Rights, and prohibits the government from interfering. What we are talking about are things that are not specifically prohibited by the Constitution, merely not mentioned, except in that rather vague catch-all at the end of the Bill of Rights.

Define formally, do you mean de jure, as in a legal proceeding were the states officially handed over responsibility X to the US government? To me, the Civil War was quite formal enough.

The federal reserve is not a private corporation.

"The Federal Reserve System is a quasi-governmental banking system composed of (1) a presidentially-appointed Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System in Washington, D.C.; (2) the Federal Open Market Committee; (3) 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation; and (4) numerous private member banks, which own varying amounts of stock in the regional Federal Reserve Banks. Ben Bernanke serves as the current Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System." -Directly from Wikipedia.

"The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System is an independent government agency. The Board of Governors does not receive funding from Congress, and the terms of the seven members of the Board span multiple presidential and congressional terms. Once a member of the Board of Governors is appointed by the president, he or she functions mostly independently. However, the Board is required to periodically report to the Senate. The law provides for the removal of a member of the Board by the President "for cause."[1]" -Nother quote from Wikipedia.

It's independent, but it's part of the government, and hence state-owned. It's not a private corporation. There are PARTS owned privately, the individual reserve banks are owned privately in part, but the federal reserve is a government agency.
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Post by Arthus »

:huh:
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Nuclear Raunch
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Post by Nuclear Raunch »

Congress has 18 areas they can legislate on, anything not in those areas is unconstitutional. This is not in one of those 18 areas, therefor it is_______.

A: Too vague to say
B: Unconstitutional
C: Constitutional

Here's a nice link for you, one from the Federal Reserve Act describing stock prices for the Fed. Last time I checked government entities don't sell stock in itself. Private corporations however, do.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/12/us ... -000-.html

You're really starting to grasp at straws...
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Gen. Volkov
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Post by Gen. Volkov »

The Federal Reserve banks! They are partially privately traded, the Fed itself, the government BODY, is NOT. It is state owned. I JUST got through saying that in my last post. Read the whole thing next time.
numerous private member banks, which own varying amounts of stock in the regional Federal Reserve Banks
Quote, DIRECTLY from my post, which is directly from wikipedia, but don't trust wiki, here's a quote from your own link.
The capital stock of each Federal reserve bank shall be divided into shares of $100 each.
See the part where it says bank? That I italicized? There are parts of the Federal Reserve SYSTEM that are partially privately owned, but the governing body is state owned.

I am not grasping at straws. The 18 areas don't specifically forbid Congress form legislating in others, it's just the described areas. The only thing in the Constitution that would stop Congress from legislating outside those areas is the 10th amendment. Which says that those rights given up by the states or the people, the government is now allowed to legislate in. They have done so, in the Civil War, in WW1, and in WW2. The governments laws are constitutional.

You are just repeating yourself now.

And it doesn't even matter, because what are you going to do about it even if they ARE unconstitutional? The only ones that have the right to declare them that are the Supreme Court Justices. You have to obey them until such time as the Justices do so. So you are not only wrong, it's a completely pointless debate.
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Nuclear Raunch
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Post by Nuclear Raunch »

The Fed board is not a government entity either. They are picked by the Pres but they are not government employees. They're employees of the Federal Reserve. I don't have time to dig it up right now, but if you still think they're govt employees I can dig up some good sections for ya.

Even if they were government employees, they arn't the ones with the money. They serve their term on the board and they're done forever, the actual money/power was already hemmed up long before those 7 guys ever had a prayer of getting a shot at the board.
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