Neoconservatism vs conservatism

[Freenhult]

I agree with Beatles her. Over 1/2 of the staff at my college that either cooks or cleans in non-Caucasian. Thats not a coincidence. Latinos are willing to work for a whole lot less, and yeah, the government does want them here.

Geesh. Your the close minded one Kraken. If anyone where would understand this, it would be Beatles. He can from a worse off place than any of us did prolly ( :/ ) and from a whole different region, so he isn't bogged down with our Ethnocentrism, which is very obvious from you or even I.

Your argument is logical from a US citizen's standpoint, but it terms of regional and international politics, its a catastrophe waiting to happen. Personally, I don't care about what policies are going in effect, I just wanna know WHY THE DEVIL DOES NO ONE DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. For goodness sake...

We don't NEED immigrants from Mexico to do our picking. Thats whats college and HS kids are for. We don't NEED them working at fast food and janitorial positions. ~_~ I lost a job at the Palisades Nuclear Powerplant to a Latino dude. HOW LAME IS THAT? $15.00 an hour. I'm sure he asked for like minimum wage or something. </Rant>

[Kraken]

of course you agree with him, i am not suprised. the mis/uninformed will often do so.
but to say that i am closed minded to this. pah, i am an american citizen, so how else am i to look at things? are those who are from without the only ones who arent blind? pah. i say that i have trodded more miles than any here and have seen more desperate things than most and i have the right to my thinking and also the right to know that my thinking is right.

[The Beatles]

*laughs*, so your saying that i have xenophobia? *laughs*, you dont know and its a stupid term that youve heard and are passing wrong. there is NOTHING wrong with want to keep ones borders secure, national language intact and ones culture in one piece. go back to hungary.

Correct, there's nothing wrong with it. That's why I support Sarkozy.

What you're doing isn't the same: keeping the immigrants here because you want their cheap labor, often below minimum wage, but not integrating them because you want to preserve your culture, etc. etc.

Which is actually pretty silly in your case as American culture is a largely new creation, a hodgepodge of various immigrant cultures of the last century. Nothing wrong with that, of course.


As to your open/closed mindedness: you come from different circumstances than most Americans, so you have a different and fresh perspective compared to them, but you don't stand out of the average on being openminded or anything. Keep in mind before this gets personal that I don't lay any claim to being openminded. All I do is try, sometimes.

[Ruddertail]

Not much time to post here, but...

First, I don't see how illegal immigration = white supremacy, or is even connected. I mean, I can see how it looks that way - the immigrants having the low paying jobs - but that's simply because they're willing to come work those jobs at low amounts of money, while the average American (white or non - white) will want more money therefore.

The concept of immigrants working 14+ hours per day is considered to be cruel.

I don't know how that's cruel. It's grueling work, yes. But they're choosing to work that much, the same as any non - immigrant who works 14 + hours a day. Are they saying it's cruel because we should be giving them some govt. aid, so they don't need to work that long?

Second, Sarkozy supports globalization with only other free markets.

Sounds good to me.

What you're doing isn't the same: keeping the immigrants here because you want their cheap labor, often below minimum wage, but not integrating them because you want to preserve your culture, etc. etc.

Are you saying that's what Kraken supports, or what American in general supports? Because I certainly differ. I would be glad to see immigrants integrating into the culture. It's not a melting pot I fear - it's a tossed salad, where everything is mixed together, but there's no cohesiveness. So long as they're willing to integrate with the US culture (learn English, for example) I certainly don't mind having them around. And not just for cheap labor.

As far as where the wealth is concentrated, it should be concentrated where the bulk of the labor and the bulk of the entrepreneurship is concentrated. Naturally, this will be the higher class - because a smart, hard working person from the lower class will tend to move up. If they're really smart, get some lucky breaks, they'll become higher class. The idea of classes in our society should be based on the smartest, hardest working being in the highest class... And a good, free market system should accomplish this. As I understand it, anyhow. I'm no econ major.

[The Beatles]

No, I'm saying that's what the government supports.


Let me make a point absolutely clear because it has been misunderstood several times. There is nothing (fixably) wrong with many of the things I am pointing out. That is how the world works, unfortunately. Just don't deny it.

There's nothing unusual in America's dominance being the result of military conquest. There's nothing unusual in gunboat diplomacy. There's nothing unusual in cheap migrant labour. There's nothing unusual about going into illegal wars. There's nothing unusual about xenophobia. Only don't defend these things just because they exist in your country.

I am not criticizing America. I could name a million things that are wrong with Hungary, some fixable, some not, and I don't defend a single one of them. I didn't start this topic for flamebait. The fact that the American or Swiss or Hungarian governments have a hypocritical policy about illegal immigration is not something that will be fixed until there is reasonable equality in standards of life, i.e. possibly never. I am just pointing it out. Only argue with me if you think something I said is untrue.

Now then, I think my point is reasonably clear. Do you argue that the American government's insane border policy is there to encourage cheap, illegal, unregulated labour?

[Gen. Volkov]

I could probably write something intelligent and meaningful here, but I am tired, so instead I will be a total bigot: FRANCE SUCKS!!!! XD

Ok, that out of the way, I will post something intelligent and meaningful tomorrow, when both of my brain cells are firing.

FIFY

*Hurts Nuke*

Now then, I think my point is reasonably clear. Do you argue that the American government's insane border policy is there to encourage cheap, illegal, unregulated labour?

Well, I don't deny it Beatles. It's quite obvious that the US wants cheap labor, and no one but immigrants are going to provide it. Usually second-generation mexican immigrants have assimilated enough of our culture to demand higher wages, and definitely by the third generation. I don't like this, but I don't deny it.

One thing I do disagree on, is this:

What you're doing isn't the same: keeping the immigrants here because you want their cheap labor, often below minimum wage, but not integrating them because you want to preserve your culture, etc. etc.

I dunno if I speak for most Americans here, but I am perfectly willing to let the illegals get green cards. All I want is for them to integrate into our culture. They are not doing this, at least the first generation ones aren't. Of course given the hodgepodge of American culture, I would be satisfied if they just learned to speak decent English. I don't care about "preserving the culture" that's an illusion anyway, but I would like them to become their own unique part of it. I think to do that though, would require closed borders.

[Kraken]

great point popov! intergrating into our "tossed salad" culture is a great idea and would be exceptnial! let them learn the english language and let them see themselves as americans first, then i would be happy. but, sadly, tis not the case...spanish language is what they know and only want to know and there is a movement...the name escapes me...that there is a sense of invasion and taking over afoot on behalf of these criminals (i will always refer to them as this until they become law abiding citizens)
but!
Beatles, you hate America or why else would you start a topic such as this? you post some crack pots ideas and then state that you agree with only a portion and that portion is so mud slung that it isnt even funny.
Beatles, i love you man, and i am glad that you can see the faults of other nations nor am i saying the America is perfect. but you have to realize that patriotism is as genuine as dissent and when you poke a horse, your liable to get kicked.
but the whole point of sans cheap labor is ridiculous. there are famers that rely on these..criminals to come every season to work and pluck thier fruits and veggies so that we consumers can indulge on thier yummy goodness. this is why President Bush is mulling the Guest Worker program. but the whole idea of cheap labor gets tossed out the window when that money does not circulate back into our economy because its sent back to mother mexico by the billions every year. so where is the economic goodness in that eh?
no, its been exposed as a conspiracy theory as of right now, but a conspiricy theory is all it is until proven otherwise and its roots lie in NAFTA and other such blunders. what am i refering to? The so-called North America Union, loosly based on the EU. there is your reasoning behind the cheap labored criminals crossing our bleeding borders. but! and here is the shocker...are you ready??...oookay: Its nothing new nope. these criminals have been oozing there way over here for quite some time. Former President Regan gave amnisty to...i forget, but it was alot and i dont want to give a false number out of assumption.
now!
what was this topic about originaly?
ah yes, Neoconservatism vs conservatism...
maybe we should steer back onto that road eh?
why not have a topic such as...
Liberalism vs NeoLiberalism?
we could discuss how progressive ideas are flumuxed with radical socialist ideas any day of the week. ooh!
how about this one:
Conservatism vs Liberalism vs Monarchy
! wow !
that would be a barrel of flaming monkeys now wouldnt it?
God save the Queen and all that.
but, alas, it isnt so.
so...
Neoconservatism vs conservatism
hmmm....
lets see....
nope, i still get stuck on comments like this one:

as conservatives in the past have been opposed to progress

progress is realative thing eh? i think so. i think that conservatives made America into a country to begin with, but that is a matter of opinion eh? but, if that is the limit of your ideology of conservatism beatles, then no one can change it because you do not wish it to be changed.
there is an old saying however: if your twenty and not a liberal, your wrong and if your forty and not a conservative, your wrong.
good riddle and it begs to use your brain abit to figure it out.
i will personally send who ever can explain said riddle to me a hersheys chocolate bar if they solve/explain it.
i did and you know what, it sorted out some thinking.

[Freenhult]

*Shakes head* Thats... sad Kraken. Really. It is.

[windhound]

"there is an old saying however: if your twenty and not a liberal, your wrong and if your forty and not a conservative, your wrong. "

its because typically the younger generation that pushes for change, and in general liberals push for change. Therefor, if you're twenty you should be a change pushing liberal
however, if you're 40 you're expected to have a good steady job, a family and just a general steady setup. you dont want change. change is bad. traditionally conservatives dont like much change, so if you're 40 you should be an anti-change conservative

I want my chocolate plz

[The Beatles]

Kraken, to leave reason out and call feeling in: I don't hate America, but I feel let down by it. I can't take your patriotism side as I'm not patriotic about Hungary.

America pours out propaganda (it must, as a superpower; I never miss an opportunity to bash Russia either) which when coming out here I find largely untrue. However, Americans believe it.

Since Americans have never been so deeply scarred by nationalism as Europeans, I feel I have to put this nationalism down whenever I see it. Patriotism to nationalism is such a slippery slope.

[Kraken]

I don't hate America, but I feel let down by it

ah ha!
now beatles, what gives you the right to think anyone gives a crap if a foreinger is let down by big ol meanie america?
does your opinion, being that it is non american and that you are over here like a leech, matter?
i think not. sorry, but i could care less if your ideas are put to the test or that you enjoy poking a tiny finger at a giant because it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
so! feel let down all that you want, i have dragged some very deep seeded animosity that lies within you out and that is fine. if you choose to be blind and not look at all sides of every issue, so be it. but when you say you look upon conservatism as such, your doing it with a critique that you would no bestow upon the liberalism side. am i wrong? hell no im not.

And Windy: you had it...almost...until your little snide remark at the end which ruined it and a couple of other flaws. sorry, but the chocolate nazi says: "No chocolate bar for you!"


NOTE (if you wish to read it):
<span style='font-size:4pt;line-height:100%'>you see, i dont like getting into these types of discussions because i have a tendency to insult and poke and prod and make people angry. but i am passionate about the way i feel and i apologize to any and all, except criminals, that i may offend.</span>

[Nuclear Raunch]

FIFY == Fixed It For Ya.

Live and learn.

Yes it does, reread what I posted.

[Kraken]

*laughs* @ nuke

[The Beatles]

I did; the comment was to myself.

Kraken, I made my reasons abundantly clear, and it's more than I usually do to reveal motivations. Nobody gives a crap if America lets me down. Nobody gives a crap if you don't like it that I love to bash nationalism where I see it. America is extremely jingoistic and nationalistic, and I take every opportunity I can to knock that off people. I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling

so! feel let down all that you want, i have dragged some very deep seeded animosity that lies within you out and that is fine. if you choose to be blind and not look at all sides of every issue, so be it. but when you say you look upon conservatism as such, your doing it with a critique that you would no bestow upon the liberalism side. am i wrong? hell no im not.

You flatter yourself; you did no such thing. You asked me a straight question about my motivations, and I gave you a straight answer. That doesn't change any of our discussions one iota. What if I ask you a straight question: how can you support your country's nationalism if you look around even one bit at what it has done and about what a fog of propaganda it is? Or haven't you looked around? Fox News good enough for you?

(Another thing, I'm not a leech, I'm actually good for your economy. My tuition is $21,000 per year; which I pay partly from reserves and partly from working full-time; plus of course I pay taxes. Of course, I don't get any financial aid at all since I'm not an American. So ironically, I subsidize the pissant little $6,000 in-state tuition people.)

[Kraken]

America is extremely jingoistic and nationalistic, and I take every opportunity I can to knock that off people. I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling

if you do not get such a feeling...why do it? is it because your jealous and know that your home country is a toilet bowl?

you flatter yourself; you did no such thing

yes i did you see, when someone shows that they are biased, then thier true colors sorta...damper thier opinions and thoughts, making them less likely to be credited because of thier slanted views. you, beatles, compared immergration to slavery, USA's government to White Supremeism, and have called the country that is currently giving you an education jingoistic and nationalistic (whereas, i dont really see the insult your trying to poke there. agian, its a matter of who cares) so! my point is, when you set out to do a hit piece, be prepared, because you intentions and your reactions to others tell alot.

how can you support your country's nationalism if you look around even one bit at what it has done and about what a fog of propaganda it is

thats a matter of wither or not you agree with what your country has done and all this CRAP about propaganda...dear me...give me an example please.

Fox News good enough for you?

*laughs*, number 1) i dont have cable and thusly i do not watch foxnews, 2) if you even take a minute to look at my links that i post, only about 7% of them are from www.foxnews.com , 3) pathetic, maybe you should watch foxnews and then give an analysis of what you have seen instead of jumping on the only propaganda machine i know of that would say such a thing: the liberal one.
you see, its comments like that that show your narrow views and exposes you to the one tract minded person that you are. have you ever went to foxnews online or watched it on television? i seriously doubt it...but here is what you have to do...are you ready beatles?? alrighty. WATCH IT FOR YOURSELF and when you realize its just like all the other news crap stations out there, jeeze, you may just weep...(but i doubt it because you NEVER be caught dead doing something like that! oh no!)

Another thing, I'm not a leech

yes you are