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Ruddertail
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Post by Ruddertail »

The banner is what you see in my sig, where it says "Warbands: Frost And Flame"

Though maybe we ought to have somebody redo it and drop the Warbands part.


[URL=http://www. frostnflame.org]Image[/URL]

Kill the space in the first image tag to get it to show up.

Edit: Had to put a space in the URL tag, too.

Edit II: Inserted space between "www." and "frostnflame.org"

Edit III: Fixed spelling of tag. Pitiful...
Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
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Freenhult
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Post by Freenhult »

Whoa. Alright.

Personally, I'm against over simplification. Lets remember, easy is nice, but gets boring fast. Complication is the spice of the game. It doesn't need to be so hard that it takes forever to learn, but it does require skill and experience.

However, the Theme we have now doesn't work. I doubt we could revert back to our Redwall theme and work, so we need a new idea. Something thats nice, but not overused.

Unit types are fine as they are. The difference in the names was prolly the coolest thing about the new changes we made a year ago. It was more for effect but still. Egyptians didn't have swordmen. :/ To me, the confusion can be fixed by using a class category. Fast units, air units, infantry, etc.

Forums: Don't touch it. xD

Pictures: *Shrug* I don't see how a picture is going to work. Just have an option to disable graphics and all.

Also, People. Search the forum. There are TONS of ideas out there. Find the topic relating to what you're thinking. Post a link to it in here or something. Bump it by posting. Its all good.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
FireFrenzy
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Post by FireFrenzy »

The Beatles wrote:I don't think it's because of our features. Look at ME, that had servers with 200-300 people at a time, easy. It's (mostly) our background, heritage, theme, etc.


Ruddertail wrote:However, I think perhaps that the lack of a simple, intuitive, strategy might be harmful to new players. Even with a tutorial, we're left with starting newbies on either a counter-intuitive strat, a complex strat, or both.


Mr President wrote:I would def agree with shortening the manual some. I like how detailed it is, but when someone opens it and has to read that much to find out how to play, they will lose interest.

Theme is everything. Graphics is everything. When people come to a site they need to be interested long before they even play the game.


Shadow I wrote:Also, have we considered the possibility that our password setup drives people away? It's not insanely complicated, but I know it's confused more than a few people in the past.


I agree with all of these statements (among others). I do think that, rather than hindering, the features are what make FAF potentially rise above the other Promisance-type games; the feature disparity between FAF and even the newest release of the QM code (which is, of course, the topic of this thread ;) ) are simply astounding. As the other codes literally become further deprecated, the future of Promisance games are likely going to be based on this code.

Of course, that rhetoric doesn't solve anything for FAF itself. But it does lend credence to the idea that the necessary changes are rather superficial, and largely aesthetic; the code itself is solid.

Unfortunately, there are googles of Promisance games, most of which look rather similar and have similar capabilities. While FAF does have additional features, unless one checks around, they won't be aware of these features. So, what helps people stick around?

1) An uncluttered, aesthetically pleasing front page. At the moment, there's nothing that makes the game initially stand-out. First looks are important: making FAF look "shnazier" might make people take a second look and, perhaps, sign-up.

2) Easier sign-up. I'd recommend making it the bare basics: username and password. If e-mail is necessary for validation, that's reasonable. However, global accounts could help in this regard, making sign-up -- and validation -- a singular event. If there aren't global accounts, then it might be tactful to have validation after using turns -- simply to get people playing quickly and easily.

3) Simpler interface. I'm an advocate if irreducible complexity. By no means remove any features, but make them as simple as possible. Similarly, I would advise maintaining the guide as a comprehensive account of the gameplay. Rather than simplifying it, perhaps make an introductory tutorial that is more brief, to give new people a quick and easy reference to the game. This will, at least hopefully, encourage people people to take the (brief) moments necessary to comprehend the unique aspects of the game. Perhaps also make a generically easy strategy, just to get people playing and interacting.

4) Higher gamefactor. Knowing the code, I know that this is quite simple, thanks to Beatles. As was mentioned before, people (at least of gaming age) like bigger numbers. While I'd speculate that it's because gaming is an escape from reality (and realistic numbers), the important thing is that it'd likely help FAF to have bigger ones. Gillions of units battling gillions of units -- that's the stuff.

5) More generic names. In my opinion, a further difficulty is that the game is, perhaps, too nuanced in its theme. The more nuanced you get with a theme, the fewer people who relate to it. Likewise, to gather a rather large playerbase, a more popular and generic theme may be preferable.


In terms of larger changes, I think that the market ideas are important. Currently, Promisance is largely war-based. In my opinion at least, I think that making it more "empire running" based would help: in particular, this would mean a larger appearance of diplomacy and economy to supplement the military aspect.

Of course, ultimately it's the community that retains people, and it's difficult to get a small community to grow. But I do think that if just a few people join here and there, it'll be increasingly easier to attract new people. And the game is certainly worthy of a far larger playerbase, that's for certain.
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The Beatles
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Post by The Beatles »

Thanks for your comments. I'm just dashing through, so I'll be brief.

First, I agree mostly with what people have said. Here are some specific replies to FireFrenzy's points.

1. Couldn't agree more. Sadly, I suck at design. Could you overhaul it, perhaps?

2. I suppose email verification really doesn't do much for us in terms of deterring determined people from multiple accounts. What if we just do username = email address? That way, we get the email (for newsletters and password recovery), but they don't actually need to validate it. The current signup still requires clicking on an email message.

3. Can you be a bit more specific? I've always tried to have simplicity as a goal (in fact, when I really went off RWL was when they introduced their new version with grey theme a couple of years ago, because I could never figure out the attacking dialog, not to mention it was broken in a lot of places). Point is, I've tried to have simplicity and ease gameplay (hence the max checkboxes, for instance). I've always been open to suggestions of simplifying the interface. So please, do submit suggestions.

4. It's something I've always personally opposed on the grounds of historical realism. But if you guys (and this has been said before 2-3 times) think it really puts people off, we can just scale it up by a million or so.

5. So you mean getting rid of the race-specific troop names? If you mean just that, Freenhult's idea of troop categories might help. If you have something else in mind, what, specifically?

Thanks for all your input, guys! :)
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Shadow I
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Post by Shadow I »

2) If you are going to do that, add a "remember me" option.
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FireFrenzy
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Post by FireFrenzy »

1) Well I'd certainly be happy to give a stab at the main page.

2) Yeah, when writing I realized that the e-mail has some use. In particular, however, the 'real name' entry could probably go. Using e-mails as usernames could work, though some people may dislike using such lengthy usernames -- so I suppose that's up to a matter of preference.

3) True. And I know that you've simplified it a good deal. It's simply that when someone joins, they're confronted with a number of options with which they are likely unfamiliar -- an assortment of attaks, missions, etc. Even if they're familiar with Promisance games they may have trouble acclimating. If they're unfamiliar with Promisance, then they likely haven't much clue where to start. Hence my suggestion of a tutorial. I haven't partaken in the game myself, but Travian has a tutorial (http://travian.us/tutorial.php) much like I'd suggest for this game. Quick and simple.

4+5) I suppose that these points of mine really go together. I was thinking along the lines of largely simplifying the themes. Bazaar --> local market; Press-gang --> increase workers. Things along those lines. Of course, along the lines of your sentiments, perhaps having servers with more nuanced themes -- and more realistic scale -- would be prudent. It's simply my contention that the main sever should be as "open-arms" as possible.
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Ruddertail
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Post by Ruddertail »

1). Yeah. If you can take a shot at that, FireFrenzy, that'd be great.


2) What about deletion security? Maybe use email addy for that? Also, I'd prefer email not = username, but if you think it'd help, I'd be willing to deal with it.

3) Yeah, again, a tutorial would be nice. Perhaps open it up to a wiki, or assign a couple volunteers to write it? Something to get them set up with a strat, probably casher (simply enough if you don't worry about tax rate) that will allow them to get some net and actually get going.

4) Scale it up. Just adding 3 0s on the end of everything should be good. While historical accuracy is nice, I don't think enough people really like historical accuracy to go for that, while a lot probably get a feeling of slow game play from it, and leave. Even I tend to get the "this is ridiculously small" feeling. I think having everything upped by a factor of 1000 would probably be a good thing.

Really, I think what we need to do is see whether the historical theme is something we want to continue to be based off of. If yes, we can modify some stuff, perhaps giving it more general names and stuff. If no, well, we can do that along with finding/creating a whole new theme.

I agree that an empire building aspect, i.e, more economy and diplomacy, could be fun. At the same time, I agree with Freen - keep away from too much micromanagement, especially in any way that would make it mandatory for successful game play. I don't want to have to spend an hour every day just managing the empire.


Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
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Freenhult
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Post by Freenhult »

Mmhmm. Its all good. I'll rewrite the game guide again later once I get home. Though, I can't say that I know tons of people that use it.

Anyway. If Beatles doesn't mind, can we revert back to large numbers starting now?
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
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Ruddertail
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Post by Ruddertail »

Meh, I don't know if the entire game guide needs rewriting. Edit for changes, then craft a simple, quick, tutorial type thing.

Meh, I figured we'd make a formal poll out of it. Ask if people prefer scaled or unscaled. Also, are you suggesting removing all scaling (including the changes to ships to make them super powerful and super expensive) or just the cosmetic, factor 1000 chop 3 zeros off the end scaling?
Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
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Freenhult
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Post by Freenhult »

Yeah. I'm talking about good ol' FaF back when I joined and all. If we're going to redesign the theme then boats won't matter if they're in the millions.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
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Ruddertail
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Post by Ruddertail »

It'll still look weird to some degree, no? I mean, 1,000,000 soldiers, 1,000,000 ships?
Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
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Shadow I
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Post by Shadow I »

We will adjust

OT: Why is my new siggy not appearing in my posts?
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Ruddertail
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Post by Ruddertail »

It only displays on the first post you make on each page of a topic. Is that what you're noticing?
Empires:
WOA: Attila the Hun(#13)
BFR: ?
Founder and Leader of Hungry Huns (HH)
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Shadow I
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Post by Shadow I »

yup, thanks :ph34r:
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Freenhult
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Post by Freenhult »

I was saying Rudder, we should call them something other than ships.
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
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