Presidential Vote

You can talk about anything here, not necessarily game-related. You may also advertise here.
Post Reply
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

A clarification on libertarian communism, by the way. The source of confusion is again that America likes to twist the meaning of common political words like "liberal", "libertarian", or "socialist". Here is an explanation, by an American:

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economic ... .htm#part6
This is actually a complicated question, because the term "libertarianism" itself has two very different meanings. In Europe in the 19th-century, libertarianism was a popular euphemism for left-anarchism. However, the term did not really catch on in the United States.

After World War II, many American-based pro-free-market intellectuals opposed to traditional conservatism were seeking for a label to describe their position, and eventually picked "libertarianism." ("Classical liberalism" and "market liberalism" are alternative labels for the same essential position.) The result was that in two different political cultures which rarely communicated with one another, the term "libertarian" was used in two very different ways. At the current time, the American use has basically taken over completely in academic political theory (probably owing to Nozick's influence), but the European use is still popular among many left-anarchist activists in both Europe and the U.S.

The semantic confusion was complicated further when some of the early post-war American libertarians determined that the logical implication of their view was, in fact, a variant of anarchism. They adopted the term "anarcho-capitalism" to differentiate themselves from more moderate libertarianism, but were still generally happy to identify themselves with the broader free-market libertarian movement.
:wq
User avatar
Tetigustas shadowson
Forum Maniac
Posts: 261
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:19 pm
Location: frozen like a pizza some place deep in the hart of Alaska

Post by Tetigustas shadowson »

we have given far worse people the reins before, I realy dont know what she's gonna do.
I hope she will do good things, that leave an open door into a matriarchal influence and usher in a new order for America.
they portray her as the home town girl gone politician, rising beauty queen, all American success story hype because America needs a Hero................... lol

sad but true

lets all hope it works and we get better politics, I can hope cant I.
tu voulez assassiner moi pour terre crotte, quand tu être tel chiffre de quelqu'un.
ponier de feut
If you want to make enemies, try to change something.
President Woodrow Wilson
If drug abuse is a disease, then a drug war is a crime.
Unknown
War is like 'Hide n seek' when your found your usualy killed, you best be realy good at it, you only get to play once
Tetigustas Shadowson
It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it.
General Douglas MacArthur
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war.
Plato
The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving.
Ulysses S Grant
The whole art of war consists of guessing at what is on the other side of the hill.
Duke of Wellington
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

This guy on slashdot makes the same argument that I've been over the past few pages. He puts it better, so I'll quote him.
http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?si ... d=25029873
The only presidents since 1963 to have ever submitted balanced budgets to Congress are Johnson and Clinton. At no time since 1945 when Republicans have been in charge of both Congress and the White House have they ever reduced spending.

The vast majority of the national debt to date was accrued during the Presidencies of three men: Reagan, Bush I and Bush II, all Republicans. In Reagan's case, he was working with a Republican Senate for his first 6 years in office, and Bush had Republicans controlling both houses for 6 years as well.

The Bush II years have seen tax cut after tax cut that were, in theory, supposed to result in increased growth and therefore reduced deficit. Instead, he has posted record deficits year after year. And still, the fiction that large tax cuts will somehow reduce the deficit persists.

The idea that Democrats are the big spending party and Republicans are fiscally responsible is pure fiction, and it boggles the mind why people continue to believe it despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Even the "big spending" LBJ was more fiscally responsible than the Republicans of the past 28 years.

If people would treat politics less like religion maybe they would make decisions based on actual historical data rather than what their party keeps telling them is the truth.
:wq
User avatar
Kraken
MLR
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:59 pm
Location: Tennessee USA hooah!
Contact:

Post by Kraken »

ah...
Slashdot! now there is some real think tanks there!
of course, everyone should get thier news from such a place!
BTW: is there one positive article about Republicans on that site?

read this link: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080916/netu108.html?.v=57
interesting stuff. ;)

anyways, now onto the danger!
i would ask anyone who thinks that Obama would be a great president to please list five reasons as to why.
i would ask anyone who thinks that McCain would be a great president to please list five reasons as to why.

my five reasons to go for McCain:
1: he is not a liberal. in fact, he isnt much of a conservative, but i have to settle...
2: he is very experienced with policies in the manner of international, trade and energy. (doesnt mean i agree with him on everything! but, its better than...)
3: he is patriotic and will hold the USA first in all of his dealings.
4: he served in the military, which is important to me.
5: he has shown bipartisanship and ability to work with any political side. his ability to piss off his own party enough to still get thier nod is amazing.

there you go!
i would ask that you post your own five reasons before disecting mine.
all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

..."I'm sorry, but I really can't see anything redeeming in your philosophy other than that dinosaurs are cute."
~Beatles

The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
Arthus
I get a title finally!? Yuppy!
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:04 pm

Post by Arthus »

The U.S. economy is going strong... Wait, it's not, damn it, time to change my statements to go with the flow... What I really meant to say is that the workers are going strong... yes... Vote for me, for when I lie to you, I promise to be a be a bad liar so you know when I am lying to you!
User avatar
Freenhult
13th Division Captain
Posts: 3380
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:30 am
Location: Valparaiso
Contact:

Post by Freenhult »

Reason for McCain

1. Experienced Politician. Not going to get bullied around and we need someone firm to deal with Russia and China.
2. Not as conservative as most Repubilcans. Which is good. I find myself more in the middle and slightly off to the left. However, McCain is more in the middle than Obama is. At least I feel so.
3. Says he wants to downsize government. If this -really- happens, that'll be amazing. Evenso, Obama hasn't said it I believe. I want a smaller central government. More States rights.
4.Economy- He doesn't know junk about the economy it seems. And I really can't say the President can really influence the way its going. So the less he can do the better. BUT, it seems he's a trade junkie. So if he's able to fix that trade gap with China, that can fix some problems.
5. Honestly, McCain has better hair. You might seem to think this is silly, but since when the first debate was aired with Kennedy and Nixon, the guy with better hair typically wins. Silly, but true. :o
Nami kotogotoku, waga tate to nare. Ikazuchi kotogotoku, waga yaiba to nare. Sōgyo no Kotowari!

波悉く我が盾となれ雷悉く我が刃となれ,双魚の理 !

Every wave be my shield, every lightning become my blade!
User avatar
windhound
Fish Rocketh, cows sucketh
Posts: 1030
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:36 pm
Location: Ze Ocean

Post by windhound »

Kraken wrote:ah...
Slashdot! now there is some real think tanks there!
of course, everyone should get thier news from such a place!
BTW: is there one positive article about Republicans on that site?
O.o
Slashdot has its share of conservatives, liberals, and those that couldnt give a flying dung heap.
I've seen all three types of comments rated +5 insightful / interesting... though honestly political discussions are rather rare. I read it near continuously over the summer and I dont think I encountered a single political story
If you want to see visible, near palpable bias go http://www.digg.com
interesting stuff.  ;) [/quote]
Not really?
Palin is in the news because she's interesting.
Obama is interesting and has flair, so thats why he's been in the news more often than McCain.
And being in the news is not necessarily a good thing, really. All that article talked about was "coverage" and it basically made it seem to be a good thing.
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=u ... earch+News
Most of those results I'd not consider favorable publicity

...
if I remember I'll make a list later
Hobbs FTW!
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

Kraken doesn't like to discuss facts as you ought to have noticed before... Whenever we've gotten to facts in this thread on any point at all, he drops it.

Anyway, if he chooses to peruse them, they're here:
http://www.cbo.gov/budget/data/historical.pdf

Or the last 15 years as a nice graph:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Reve ... -_2007.png
:wq
User avatar
Gen. Volkov
I'm blue, if I was green I would die.
Posts: 2342
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Boringtown, Indiana

Post by Gen. Volkov »

The only presidents since 1963 to have ever submitted balanced budgets to Congress are Johnson and Clinton. At no time since 1945 when Republicans have been in charge of both Congress and the White House have they ever reduced spending.
Misleading statement and partly untrue, the republicans have had the presidency for 36 of the 60+ years since 1945, but they've only had the presidency and congress for like 8 of those 36 years, and only 2 of those years came before 2000. Eisenhower had a republican congress for his first two years of office. In those two years, the National Debt was actually reduced to it's lowest point since before WW2. So he must have had a balanced budget. Now, in regards to the other 6 years, it's perfectly accurate that there have not been balanced budgets submitted. The bit about Reagan having a Republican senate is also true of course, but that's not the same as having congress.

As for the rest, don't really want to argue about it. There are several things that I could mention that would be true, but I think I would have to argue about it for several posts before others would accept it, and I've already had the argument once. That was enough.
It is said that when Rincewind dies, the occult ability of the human race will go UP by a fraction. -Terry Pratchett
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

Well bugger me for having a hard time tracking who the hell happens to be in power in this schizophrenic executive-legislative division. This is nothing personal, of course, but if one party controls the one, and the other the other, does the US still have a functioning government? If you say yes, then you can still pin the blame somewhere. If you say no, that says more about the government than the economy ever could. This seems to me like a game of just passing the blame.

If you like, let's just look at when one party controlled both branches and see what happened. The one instance I know is Clinton, and he balanced the budget. If someone knows more such instances, go ahead and please post.
:wq
User avatar
Gen. Volkov
I'm blue, if I was green I would die.
Posts: 2342
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Boringtown, Indiana

Post by Gen. Volkov »

Well bugger me for having a hard time tracking who the hell happens to be in power in this schizophrenic executive-legislative division. This is nothing personal, of course, but if one party controls the one, and the other the other, does the US still have a functioning government? If you say yes, then you can still pin the blame somewhere. If you say no, that says more about the government than the economy ever could. This seems to me like a game of just passing the blame.
Well, if we're schizophrenic, a parliamentary system is psychotic, because no one in their right mind would concentrate all executive and legislative power in one body.

See? Two can play that game. How about we leave the commentary on political systems aside?

Of course we still had a functioning government. It's just harder to get things done. As for pinning the blame... I'm going to go with Ronald Reagan. Until him, federal budgets were pretty stable. From the end of WW2 until 1980, the National Debt experienced little growth, mostly due to interest. After Reagan, it began soaring upwards at a crazy rate. All through Reagan's term, Bush the elder's term, and most of Clinton's term. Clinton himself never decreased spending, it went up by 35% under his presidency, but he got lucky, the economy experienced one of it's longest periods of growth in US history, so tax revenues shot up by 83%, which eventually led to a balanced budget, and even a surplus. Then the economy tanked and two aircraft hit the WTC and we went spiraling into a recession. Right as Bush the younger took office. His policies certainly didn't help any, but I doubt Clinton could have done much better. Anyway, the turning point in balanced budgets and government spending in Ronald Reagan. Everyone before him was basically fiscally responsible, Republican or Democrat, everyone after was basically not, Republican or Democrat.
It is said that when Rincewind dies, the occult ability of the human race will go UP by a fraction. -Terry Pratchett
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

Sure, I like these psychoses. :) But I still prefer the parliamentary system. Apropos the semi-presidential system of France and Russia is a compromise between the two, not that I like it...

Why be reserved? Passion is the spice of life -- no, it is life.

By the way, McCain flip-flopped on the economy today. In the morning it was sound, in the afternoon it was in a crisis, according to him.

Don't you think Clinton could spend more precisely because the economy was better off? Fiscal stringency does not just mean spending less, but within your means. Anyway, it is a matter of perspective, and I am grateful to you for the clarification.
:wq
User avatar
Gen. Volkov
I'm blue, if I was green I would die.
Posts: 2342
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:47 pm
Location: Boringtown, Indiana

Post by Gen. Volkov »

Sure, I like these psychoses. smile.gif But I still prefer the parliamentary system. Apropos the semi-presidential system of France and Russia is a compromise between the two, not that I like it...
Why be reserved? Passion is the spice of life -- no, it is life.
LOL, alright, whatever. And yes, I know the semi-presidential system of France is a compromise, I don't like it either. Heh.
By the way, McCain flip-flopped on the economy today. In the morning it was sound, in the afternoon it was in a crisis, according to him.
That's what you get for listening to the pollsters.
Don't you think Clinton could spend more precisely because the economy was better off? Fiscal stringency does not just mean spending less, but within your means. Anyway, it is a matter of perspective, and I am grateful to you for the clarification.
The tax revenues took 5 years to catch up with his spending habits. That's 5 years of high growth on the national debt. He only had a balanced budget and surpluses at the end of his presidency. A truly fiscally responsible president would have turned it around much quicker. Heck, Truman did it in a matter of months. We went from way overspending due to the war as 1945 drew to a close, to nearly balanced budget and falling national debt in 1946, as the civilian economy picked back up from the rigors of wartime. It really was quite abrupt. The US government stopped spending, and tax revenues picked up as the peacetime economy got back on it's feat, and the debt fell dramatically. Clinton didn't have a wartime economy to dismantle of course, but he could have at least kept spending stable while the economy grew around him. He would have had results in a much shorter time frame. Probably not as fast as Truman, but much shorter than 5 years.

And yes, I suppose it is something of a matter of perspective.
It is said that when Rincewind dies, the occult ability of the human race will go UP by a fraction. -Terry Pratchett
User avatar
The Beatles
Fear me for I am root
Posts: 6285
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:12 pm

Post by The Beatles »

Apropos, Truman's radical policy in all areas was a real break with FDR and the wartime spending, and pissed off some European allies. For instance, the whole debacle with the nuclear research and Britain, and pulling the plug on lend-lease, which plunged the UK into chaos for a while. But you have to hand it to him, the US's economy boomed like nobody's business.
:wq
User avatar
Kraken
MLR
Posts: 1522
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:59 pm
Location: Tennessee USA hooah!
Contact:

Post by Kraken »

I dont like to pay attention to the truth eh?
hmmm...
i think Popov put you in that place...


talk about flip flop:
Obama pledged To Withdraw American Troops From Iraq Immediately, Barack Obama Now Says He Would "Refine" His Policy After Listening To The Commanders On The Ground

Obama pleged to take public financing, then decided agianst it.

he has flip flopped on his stance on NAFTA

he was for the DC gun ban before he was agianst it.
his home state of Illinois has widespread gun banning and yet he is running on a pro gun stance.

Obama Criticizes The Administration's energy policy despite Having Voted for The 2005 Bush-Cheney Energy Bill. (one of the few votes he has contributed)

He was for Nuclear Engergy, but has said that he is agianst it.

Barak Hussien Obama has said that he would meet with our enemies without preconditions, but now says different.

the list could go on and all is quite verfiable.
dare you to challenge any of it.

McCain said that the fundamentals of the economy are strong.
he then went on a morning show and said that the fundamentals are the american workers.
he is right on both accounts. (is this the so-called flip flop? man...unless i missed something this morning, you guys are grasping at shadows here..._
many communists would disagree with him though... :ph34r:
all about FAVRE, come on...you know you want to click it

..."I'm sorry, but I really can't see anything redeeming in your philosophy other than that dinosaurs are cute."
~Beatles

The Kraken, which is found primarily in Scandinavian myth, was a huge sea creature. It was said to lie at the bottom of the sea for a long time and then it would rest at the surface....Like the Midgard serpent in the Norse myths, the Kraken was supposed to rise to the surface at the end of the world.
Post Reply
  • Members connected in real time

    🔒 Close the panel of connected members