Football discussion

[Kraken]

alright!
lets discuss football and no i dont mean the futbol or soccer!

couple of points i want to drag out of the shoutbox before they get lost...

#1: Popov: i am not comparing Notre Dame's record with Tennessee's! i dont care about Notre Dame or the Hunchback that lives there! i was making a small point about Tee Martin and what a professional dissapointment he turned out to be!
also how Peyton Manning, altough while he was at Tennessee and was already being considered one of the best to ever play, never won the national title!

#2: Bret Farve. Comparing Joe Montana to Bret Farve is comparing apples and oranges. why not compare Bart Starr to David Rothlesburger? i am a Green Bay fan and think Bret, although past his prime, will go down as a football icon. now you can piss at that and sniff and stomp; but its true.

here is some of the records/places he currently is at: http://www.packers.com/history/record_book/individual_records/favre_watch/
some of my favourites:

Career Passing Yards Total To Surpass
1) Dan Marino 61,361 3,862
2) Brett Favre 57,500 --
3) John Elway 51,475 --
4) Warren Moon 49,325 --
5) Fran Tarkenton 47,003 --

Career Completions
1) Brett Favre 5,021 --
2) Dan Marino 4,967 --
3) John Elway 4,123 --
4) Warren Moon 3,988 --
5) Fran Tarkenton 3,686 --

Career Touchdown Passes
1) Dan Marino 420 7
2) Brett Favre 414 --
3) Fran Tarkenton 342 --
4) John Elway 300 --
5) Warren Moon 291 --


there is a few! see Montana's name on there? hmmm?
listen, i think that Troy Aikman proved that a mediocre QB can win superbowls. I am NOT saying the Joe Montana is a bad QB, hell no: he is the man on many many levels, but! to diminish or bash Bret Farve and compare him to someone like Manning is just shows that you know nothing of the mans accomplishments. Bret won 1 superbowl, went back the next year and lost to another QB legend: John Elway.

[The Beatles]

Once again, the voice of sanity (and other funny voices) to save the shoutbox.

[Nuclear Raunch]

Completion Percentage
(minimum 1,500 attempts)
66.41 Kurt Warner, St. Louis, 1998-2003 (1,688-1,121)
64.28 Steve Young, Tampa Bay, 1985-86; San Francisco, 1987-1999 (4,149-2,667)
63.24 Joe Montana, San Francisco, 1979-1990, 1992; Kansas City, 1993-94 (5,391-3,409)

Passer Rating
97.2 Kurt Warner, St. Louis, 1998-2003
96.8 Steve Young, Tampa Bay, 1985-86; San Francisco, 1987-1999
92.3 Joe Montana, San Francisco, 1979-1990, 1992; Kansas City, 1993-94

[Gen. Volkov]

You need to add Manning to both those lists Nuke. Manning has a 94.4 passer rating and 64% completion percentage.

#1: Popov: i am not comparing Notre Dame's record with Tennessee's! i dont care about Notre Dame or the Hunchback that lives there! i was making a small point about Tee Martin and what a professional dissapointment he turned out to be!
also how Peyton Manning, altough while he was at Tennessee and was already being considered one of the best to ever play, never won the national title!

Oh, OK then.

Manning is still better than Favre though. Favre has just been in the league longer.

#2: Bret Farve. Comparing Joe Montana to Bret Farve is comparing apples and oranges. why not compare Bart Starr to David Rothlesburger? i am a Green Bay fan and think Bret, although past his prime, will go down as a football icon. now you can piss at that and sniff and stomp; but its true.

How is comparing 2 QB's comparing apples to oranges? I'd understand if I were trying to compare say, Jim Brown to Bret Favre, but Montana is a perfectly legit comparison. I didn't say Bret was a bad QB, in fact, I acknowledged that he as a good one, but he's not as good as Montana. Montana was the Comeback Kid, he led his team to 31 third quarter comeback wins. I don't think Favre has comeback and won even half that many. Montana IS a football legend. Bret will go down as a good QB, he might even make the Hall of Fame, but he will never be as good as Montana was. Montana is already in the Hall of Fame.

Career Passing Yards Total To Surpass
1) Dan Marino 61,361 3,862
2) Brett Favre 57,500 --
3) John Elway 51,475 --
4) Warren Moon 49,325 --
5) Fran Tarkenton 47,003 --

Peyton Manning has 37,586 passing yards 20k yards away from Favre and closing fast. the man passes for 4000 yards almost every season. So what, 5 seasons and he's caught Favre? 6 to catch Marino? In other words, 2 fewer seasons to get to the same mark. So he's better there.

Career Completions
1) Brett Favre 5,021 --
2) Dan Marino 4,967 --
3) John Elway 4,123 --
4) Warren Moon 3,988 --
5) Fran Tarkenton 3,686 --

Peyton Manning 3,131 passes completed, with a higher completion percentage than Favre too. So he'll get there faster as well. Better there as well.

Career Touchdown Passes
1) Dan Marino 420 7
2) Brett Favre 414 --
3) Fran Tarkenton 342 --
4) John Elway 300 --
5) Warren Moon 291 --

Peyton Manning 275 passing touchdowns, getting 25+ TD passes every single season since 1999, an NFL record by the way. About 5 seasons to catch Favre, 6 to pass Marino. In other words, he'll get to the same stats faster than Favre did. Better again. Huh, funny that.

Looks like Manning, even though he doesn't currently hold the records is on pace to break them all, faster than Favre did. Guess he is a better QB.

You are right, Montana isn't on there, I've already acknowledged that, but Montana has things that Favre only has wet dreams about. 4 SuperBowl rings for starters, 3 time SuperBowl MVP, and a highlight reel that makes other QB's drool. Two of the most famous comeback wins in NFL history are on Montana's resume. He played his best in pressure situations.

listen, i think that Troy Aikman proved that a mediocre QB can win superbowls.

Troy Aikman was a pretty good QB, I mean, he had a fantastic team around him, but he was by no means completely mediocre.

I am NOT saying the Joe Montana is a bad QB, hell no: he is the man on many many levels, but!

So why mention Aikman at all?

to diminish or bash Bret Farve and compare him to someone like Manning is just shows that you know nothing of the mans accomplishments.

I know perfectly well what he's accomplished, I've been watching him beat the hell out of my Bears for years now. But having watched him play, I just don't think he's a QB of the same caliber as Peyton Manning.

Bret won 1 superbowl, went back the next year and lost to another QB legend: John Elway.

Guess who beat John Elway? Joe Montana. The 49ers spanked the Broncos in Elway's 3rd Superbowl appearance. Final score: 55-10. So by the transitive property, Montana is better than Favre, because Elway beat Favre, and Montana beat Elway. Transitive property: if A>B, and B>C, then A>C. A= Montana, B= Elway, C= Favre.

[Kraken]

Once again, the voice of sanity (and other funny voices) to save the shoutbox.

whatta is thatta supposed to meana?


Nuke: your Completion Percentage & Passer Rating is neat-o. but! what is Percentages compared to actualality?

Popov: at any given moment, a quaterback will have a good, decent or horrible passer Rating. its at the end of the road that matters and thusly; Peytons current Rating is irrelevent until the end.

Manning is still better than Favre though. Favre has just been in the league longer.

that, as i am going to have to say quite often throughout this post, will be told by the test of time.

How is comparing 2 QB's comparing apples to oranges?

you have to consider that the two, three or whatever in discussion, are either playing or retired. Montana's stats will never go up or down: he's finished his dash for the border. Farve still has this next season, maybe the next, before he is fini. so! his stats can only go up, except for the passer rating which continues to decline. so can you compare Manning to Farve....somewhat....Farve has proven himself and so has Manning, both have one superbowl victory under thier belts, both have had MVP's, but here is the difference: you say that Manning is on Track to catch up/surpass Farve and his accomplishments: but that is just speculation! he will have to do so in order to get credit for it. am i wrong?

Guess who beat John Elway? Joe Montana. The 49ers spanked the Broncos in Elway's 3rd Superbowl appearance. Final score: 55-10. So by the transitive property, Montana is better than Favre, because Elway beat Favre, and Montana beat Elway. Transitive property: if A>B, and B>C, then A>C. A= Montana, B= Elway, C= Favre.

hmmm...your assesment is flawed. Farve won the superbowl, then Elway came and won agianst Farve and then retired after the following season. he met Montana....when? oh, yeah, years before that. thats right. anyways: in comparison to as to who is on tract or who is smoking the barrels of QB legend one thing can be said about Farve: hes there and already done it. Manning, and i hope that you are not taking me wrong, i like Manning: he is exciting to watch and is from the University of Tennessee , still has to get to where Farve is. when that happens: then you can say something.
hey, how about Ben Rothlesburger:

he has the Most wins By a Rookie QB in 2004, has a Superbowl victory under his belt & has the Most Consecutive Wins by a Rookie Quarterback for 2004 AND he has been in the NFL in less time the Manning: so i guess he's a better Quarterback then huh? funny.
we can kick the football around on this all you want. no pun intended of course...

[Gen. Volkov]

Popov: at any given moment, a quaterback will have a good, decent or horrible passer Rating. its at the end of the road that matters and thusly; Peytons current Rating is irrelevent until the end.

All those ratings, as well as Peyton's are the cumulative average. Not seasonal averages. So for the last 9 years, Peyton Manning has averaged a 94.4 passer rating and his overall completion percentage is 64%.

that, as i am going to have to say quite often throughout this post, will be told by the test of time.

The next Superbowl Manning wins proves it.

you have to consider that the two, three or whatever in discussion, are either playing or retired. Montana's stats will never go up or down: he's finished his dash for the border. Farve still has this next season, maybe the next, before he is fini. so! his stats can only go up, except for the passer rating which continues to decline. so can you compare Manning to Farve....somewhat....Farve has proven himself and so has Manning, both have one superbowl victory under thier belts, both have had MVP's, but here is the difference: you say that Manning is on Track to catch up/surpass Farve and his accomplishments: but that is just speculation! he will have to do so in order to get credit for it. am i wrong?

And completion percentage, which also continues to decline. OK, you have a point about Manning not achieving it yet, but I've no doubt he will, he has been having 4000 yard, 25 TD seasons every year since his very first. Unless he gets seriously injured, I see no reason why that shouldn't continue.

he has the Most wins By a Rookie QB in 2004, has a Superbowl victory under his belt & has the Most Consecutive Wins by a Rookie Quarterback for 2004 AND he has been in the NFL in less time the Manning: so i guess he's a better Quarterback then huh? funny.

Uh no, why? Because he went flat the next year, and the year after. If he had performances like his rookie year the next two, one might be able to say something. Manning has had a high level of play every single year. He wasn't as good as rookie as he is now, but even as a rookie, he was still pretty damn good.

hmmm...your assesment is flawed. Farve won the superbowl, then Elway came and won agianst Farve and then retired after the following season. he met Montana....when? oh, yeah, years before that. thats right.

No it's not, Montana beat Elway in Elway's third superbowl appearance. It was 8 years earlier, but Elway wasn't exactly a rookie at that point. He had already led his team to two Superbowls before that. BTW, Elway beat Farve, and then went back to the Superbowl again the next year, and won again. Then he retired.

anyways: in comparison to as to who is on tract or who is smoking the barrels of QB legend one thing can be said about Farve: hes there and already done it.

Yes, that's right Favre is at the end of his career. He likely will not go to another Superbowl. So he is 1 and 2. Montana won every Superbowl he went to. I think that speaks for itself. As far as QB legends go, Favre is distinctly 2nd tier.

Manning, and i hope that you are not taking me wrong, i like Manning: he is exciting to watch and is from the University of Tennessee wink.gif , still has to get to where Farve is. when that happens: then you can say something.

You are right, he's not there yet, but he's getting close, and is on track to get there faster. And watching the two QB's play, I can tell that Manning is better than Favre, even when Favre was at the top of his game. For one thing, Favre had an offensive coordinator calling the shots, Manning is basically his own offensive coordinator.

[Kraken]

*laughs*, you totaly missed my points.
you see: it doesnt matter if you think that Peyton will surpass Farve, until it happens... ptttttttttttttttttt!
It doesnt matter that you think that he is on "track" to become the QB God of all time, until it happens... ptttttttttttttt!!
Until Farve is a done deal: you have no idea of what he is going or not going to achieve: so ptttttttt!!!!!!!
Rothlesburgher did...implode. but he did land on his head after the motorcycle accident.
sorry for all the tounge pttttting. it was fun though.

anyways: i going to have some predictions for the Superbowl right here, right now before the season even begins! lets see if im right....

are you ready? alright! for the AFC: <span style='color:blue'>San Diego Chargers</span>
for the NFC: <span style='color:yellow'>New Orleans Saints</span>
and the Chargers win!

anyone else brave enough to make a prediction?

No it's not, Montana beat Elway in Elway's third superbowl appearance. It was 8 years earlier, but Elway wasn't exactly a rookie at that point. He had already led his team to two Superbowls before that. BTW, Elway beat Farve, and then went back to the Superbowl again the next year, and won again. Then he retired.

so Elway went to 5 superbowls?

You are right, he's not there yet, but he's getting close, and is on track to get there faster. And watching the two QB's play, I can tell that Manning is better than Favre, even when Favre was at the top of his game. For one thing, Favre had an offensive coordinator calling the shots, Manning is basically his own offensive coordinator.

*laughs*, Farve was in his prime while Manning was still in college. Even John Madden, whose opinion is quite supreme over either of ours, said that Farve throws the ball harder and straighter than any other QB that has played the game. "if" you ever really did watch Farve play, you would notice how he fires the ball in tight spots where no other QB would dare. Manning: albiet is a good QB, has better recievers than Farve ever did. take away those recievers...........................

[Gen. Volkov]

If I missed your points, that's your fault for not being clear enough.

so Elway went to 5 superbowls?

Yes he did, that's an NFL record. He only won two though, I think Montana's four Superbowl wins is another NFL record, not sure though.

anyone else brave enough to make a prediction?

Bears vs Colts again. Colts probably win, but Bears have a decent shot at it. Chargers will miss out on the big game again, either losing to the Colts in the AFC Championship or earlier in the playoffs. Saints lost Joe Horn, who was their best reciever. They'll go about 8-8, maybe 10-6, might make the playoffs, but won't make the Superbowl. Colts retained everyone big but Dominic Rhodes and picked up an excellent player in the draft. Anthony Gonzalez. Expect big things out of the Colts. Bears lost Jones, but acquired Adrian Peterson and Greg Olsen. If Grossman can stay on form through most of the season, they'll go far, especially with their new offensive players. Devin Hester, the best kick returner in the NFL, is now a wide receiver. The Bears defense will get them through a lot of tight spots, they did lose a few people but they picked up others, so it balances out. Tommie Harris and Mike Brown are both back, which were the two key injuries that made them a bit less effective last year.

*laughs*, Farve was in his prime while Manning was still in college. Even John Madden, whose opinion is quite supreme over either of ours, said that Farve throws the ball harder and straighter than any other QB that has played the game. "if" you ever really did watch Farve play, you would notice how he fires the ball in tight spots where no other QB would dare. Manning: albiet is a good QB, has better recievers than Farve ever did. take away those recievers...........................

You are quoting John Madden to me? Pah, I listen as little as possible to that man, because he says the same things about every QB. He's down on them when they are doing poorly, a cheerleader for them when they are doing well. Manning may not throw the ball harder than Favre, but he is a hell of a lot more accurate. IF? IF??? I'm a BEARS FAN, of COURSE I've watched Favre play! I've seen Manning, Brady Quinn, and Tom Brady all make the kind of tight throws that Favre does. But he does do it more often, which is why he has many more interceptions and incompletions than those three QB's. Take away Mannings recioevers? OK, well, he has lost one or more of them, whether due to injury or free agency, and he's maintained his numbers. If he lost all of them at once, I don't know how well he'd do, but then again, if any QB lost all of their first string receivers at once, they probably wouldn't do too well.

you see: it doesnt matter if you think that Peyton will surpass Farve, until it happens... ptttttttttttttttttt!

Fine, if statistics and rates mean nothing to you, then how about this, you said when Manning gets close to Favre, I could say something. Well he IS close, so what do you have to say to that?

It doesnt matter that you think that he is on "track" to become the QB God of all time, until it happens... ptttttttttttttt!!

See above.

Until Farve is a done deal: you have no idea of what he is going or not going to achieve: so ptttttttt!!!!!!!

Oh whatever, the Packers haven't been the Superbowl for 10 years, and Favre is no longer at the top of his game. It would take a freaking miracle for them to go back at this point. As for the other records, well, I doubt highly he will have a 10,000 yard passing season, if he stays in the league 3 more years and has a 4,000 yard season for those years, then he'll have the highest total passing yards record, but given the last few years, that's highly unlikely. He probably will get the total touchdowns record though. I don't have an exact idea, but I can make fairly accurate predictions based on what I know of the Packers and his past few years performances.

Farve was in his prime while Manning was still in college.

Yes, and your point is? I've seen both play, in their primes, and I say Manning is better.

[Nuclear Raunch]

Volkov, Chicago didn't get that Adrian Peterson, the good one went to Minnisota with the 7th pick (I think) of the draft. The Adrian Peterson on the Bears has been there for years and has always been a back up rb whose only real contributions are on special teams. Olsen, while fast, is imo the 2nd best TE taken in the draft, Zach Miller is a much better player. I think Chicago will regret that decision in time.

Hate to break it to you but Chicago's in for a dissappointing season. They make the postseason given the mediocrity of the NFC but that's it.

[Gen. Volkov]

Volkov, Chicago didn't get that Adrian Peterson, the good one went to Minnisota with the 7th pick (I think) of the draft. The Adrian Peterson on the Bears has been there for years and has always been a back up rb whose only real contributions are on special teams.

Yeah, you're right. I got confused because they have the same name, but I realized my mistake late yesterday and am only just now getting back to FAF to post again.

Olsen, while fast, is imo the 2nd best TE taken in the draft, Zach Miller is a much better player. I think Chicago will regret that decision in time.

Eh, they still got a darn good TE to complement Dallas Clark. Remember, they already had one of the best TE in the NFL before they drafted him, they were just looking for a bit of help at that position. From the way Chicago walloped San Francisco, I'm gonna say that they are as good as last year at least, if not better. Grossman was really on form in that game of course, which makes the rest of the team look much better. The best part was that he didn't fall apart after his interception. I'm not counting the last half of the game, because the first string teams only played through the third quarter and Grossman left the game after the first half. The 49ers got stomped when they were actually playing.

I would comment on the Colts game, but when the Lions benched three of their star players, and the Colts played their full first string for 2 quarters, well, what's the point in even mentioning it? The Colts crushed them of course. Well, the Lions defense wasn't that hurt, so that part of the game was fairly legit. Except that the Lions suck.

Hate to break it to you but Chicago's in for a dissappointing season. They make the postseason given the mediocrity of the NFC but that's it.

We'll see won't we?

[Nuclear Raunch]

Olsen, while fast, is imo the 2nd best TE taken in the draft, Zach Miller is a much better player. I think Chicago will regret that decision in time.

Eh, they still got a darn good TE to complement Dallas Clark. Remember, they already had one of the best TE in the NFL before they drafted him, they were just looking for a bit of help at that position. From the way Chicago walloped San Francisco, I'm gonna say that they are as good as last year at least, if not better. Grossman was really on form in that game of course, which makes the rest of the team look much better. The best part was that he didn't fall apart after his interception. I'm not counting the last half of the game, because the first string teams only played through the third quarter and Grossman left the game after the first half. The 49ers got stomped when they were actually playing.

Hate to break it to you but Chicago's in for a dissappointing season. They make the postseason given the mediocrity of the NFC but that's it.

We'll see won't we?

Dallas Clark didn't get anyone to compliment him, he plays for Indy and they didn't pick up any TEs.

Grossman only flops when A: teams gameplan him well and B: they get into his head. That *usually* doesn't happen in preseason since it's all base stuff with the playcalling and the game implications are negligible. I have complete faith in him, he'll be just as sporadic as ever

EDIT: Just saw Grossman's stats- it certainly looks like his hot-cold routine is in full effect, let's see if it carries over to the real games.

[Kraken]

here is a great article about Farve, Nuke will appreciate it because it starts by talking about Oakland fans. :*laughs*:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AsevVyYJgIe3J3mqAy8mvB.G2bYF?slug=ap-favresappeal&prov=ap&type=lgns
here is an article that will open your eyes to man that Farve is and why fans everywhere knows that he is the ever loving man.
not to mention The NFL's only three-time MVP

but!
i am changing my superbowl perdiction already!
here it is: New England Patriots v/s The New Orleans Saints
and the Pats win.

[Gen. Volkov]

Dallas Clark didn't get anyone to compliment him, he plays for Indy and they didn't pick up any TEs.

Desmond Clark, DESMOND Clark! Jese. If you know that Dallas Clark plays for the Colts, then you must also know that DESMOND Clark plays for the Bears, so instead of being a jackass, you could have just said, "I think you mean Desmond Clark, Volkov."

Grossman only flops when A: teams gameplan him well and B: they get into his head. That *usually* doesn't happen in preseason since it's all base stuff with the playcalling and the game implications are negligible. I have complete faith in him, he'll be just as sporadic as ever

Last year was essentially his rookie year. I think you are a little ahead of yourself on this on Nuke. No QB in history was perfect in his rookie year. We'll just have to wait for the real season to tell.



Kraken, my prediction remains the same. Colts/Bears. Colts probably win, Bears have a better shot this year than last. Course this is all completely dependent on injuries. If anyone big gets hurt, my scenario goes out the window. BTW, I don't care a hoot about Bret Favre, and the article has not changed that attitude.

[Nuclear Raunch]

I didn't even realize Desmond was still a Bear, anyway I think with the loss of Thomas Jones, Lance Briggs (I think he left) and standout returners penchant for tanking the following year I expect Chicago to be less effective this year. If Grossman can stop being so fragile minded their passing game might help alleviate both of those problems. Hopefully he does since Berrian is a local athlete that I like to see succeed.

I think right now I'm gonna say NO/NE looks the best on paper but there will be some surprises. NO will be hard pressed to top last year and while NE has loaded up we've seen in the past that that's not always successful.

[Nuclear Raunch]

What the hell was he thinking?